Is like some man figget awreddy

[Willi]

We just got rescued from the Tiefingest regime Jamaica ever faced and even before the new one get sworn in and we can actually judge their character, the criticisms flying all over the place.

Well, I cant countenance this. The new people will have to be judged on their own merit of words and actions.

However, the old one had a clear record and I wont subscribe to the short term amnesia that I see some people catching. Dem tief and dem get ketch repeatedly. Even still dem brazen wid it. Furniture, Zinc, shell, NetServe, trafugura and a myriad of other scandals. We should call them the BIG DIPPERS.

I was hoping that Portia would have cleaned house, but her love of Party seemed to surpass love of country...maybe she was waiting for a 5th term to start, but that is NOT GOOD ENUFF!

[Willi]

We should not also forget the madness of the 1970s, when the PNP used State muscle to evict and batter people in Rema, Payne Land, bun up old people at Eventide Home, Green Bay Killing, Gold Street Massacre, detention of opposition members in a SoE, and many other lesser assaults on Jamaicans. Portia, Tony Spaulding, DK and Dudley Thompson were among the worst offenders here.

The JLP have their incidents of Shame too, but tended NOT to be State sponsored like with the PNP.

These things need to be remembered and atoned for, not swept under the carpet like they never happened. To here some people speak, you would think the PNP is a party of angels and that the members should be given National Hero status if not sainthood! We really need a truth and reconciliation exercise indeed.

Imagine the dutty labourites looking better than Daddy Manley party. That bun mi real bad.

Norman Manley (national hero on MERIT) deserves better than this!

[Exile]

Willi, if you really want us too back to the 80's it will not look good. I have not seen anyone here calling PNP a party of angels. There are no angels in politics! How could you subscribe the fire at Eventide to the PNP? I agree with you, Portia should have cleaned house earlier....she kept the bad eggs and they sunk her along with other opposition tricks.
But to come here and start to list things on one side and then say the others had some "incidents of shame" but not as bad is disingenuous at best.
Further, you don't need someone to be sworn in to "judge their character". While we should not paint all politicians (JLP and PNP) with the same brush, we KNOW who the dubious ones are. What are they now "born again" because they won an election?

[Assasin]

one thing we can agree on
Portia shoulda clean house and we wouldn't be here.
The PNP can blame who they wanted but they had the oppurtunity to bury the JLP if Portia had done the right thing. Bruce woulda cry when him visit his parents grave.

[Lazie]

My thing is why the long wait fi swear in the new administration? I can bet the shredders working very hard.

[Exile]

Remember, the final count was on Thursday...so announcement Friday...plan weekend and Monday is 1st working day - Tuesday is very soon.

[Karl]

I refuse to fall for the unsubstantiated 'shouts' about 'tiefin' on 'di government'.

If there is 'tiefin' I am expecting the JLP to hold those who 'tief' accountable. That there has been mismanaging in various areas is a fact. ...but, what is this 'di government tief' we are talking about?

Let us see if those the JLP keep in their posts and or shuffle around and the new persons they bring in will prevent mismanagement and whether we have increased mismanagement (either in strict dollars comparison or %age when project costs are compared) or reduce mismanagement?

Let us see if the resultant movement in levels of efficiency will be claimed to be 'di government's work'...or, the work of the persons charged to manage or shared with the individuals and the elusive, hard to be clearly identified 'di government?

Persons 'tief'...no damn the 'di government'...government management systems attempt to limit opportunities for 'tiefin' and bring 'tief dem' to justice.

Government rules, regulations and persons hired to see to the effective implementation of same, the increasing of efficiency of management operations within confines (laid out parameters of the rules, regulations, etc.) of same...with innovative ideas and sound policies making for delivery of 'good services'. It is the persons who make 'good services' or 'bad services'...it is the persons from which 'tiefs' arise/are found.

I have no doubt there were PNP supporters who are 'tiefs' who were operating in government departments during the last 18 years and am equally sure there were JLP supporters who are 'tiefs' who were operating in government departments during the last 18 years.

There shall be PNP supporters who are 'tiefs' and shall be JLP supporters who are 'tiefs' who will operate both in government departments and outside of government departments 'tiefin' as they supposedly go about 'our business'/'government business' during the coming regimes rule. 'Tief' nah run/guh weh! They will still be around.

Persons are 'tiefs' not government(s)...it is persons mindset that lead them to be 'tiefs'...matters not if they support PNP or JLP a 'tief'...'tiefs' just that, damn 'tief'.

Just think on it - The cop who steals from the motorist, the contractor who pads his bills, the printer who provides services to government agencies and bill at 200% of his rate to the private sector, the person working within the government department who works hand in glove with the 'tief'...is it sensible and rational to claim - government 'tief'?

...and, if there is an MP who is a 'tief'...what of the career civil servants and or career statutory employees who facilate 'di tiefin'? ...writes the purchase order, prepares and sees to the execution of the contracts, draws the cheques, sees to the disbursement of the funds, and collects his/her reward (tangible reward or intangible reward) is it fair to claim 'di government tief'? Is it not those individuals who facilitate and carry out 'di tiefin' that are in truth the 'tiefs'?

I will not buy into the generalisation that 'di government tief'...that may be the easy way to go...may make for great 'Klans support'/political 'shout' and or 'smugness' but, that makes no sense to me! It is individuals who must be held accountable...it cannot, as I see it be any other way. What are we going to do find 'di government' guilty and send 'di government' to jail? Just does not make sense to me!

[Willi]

Willi, if you really want us too back to the 80's it will not look good. I have not seen anyone here calling PNP a party of angels. There are no angels in politics! How could you subscribe the fire at Eventide to the PNP? I agree with you, Portia should have cleaned house earlier....she kept the bad eggs and they sunk her along with other opposition tricks.
But to come here and start to list things on one side and then say the others had some "incidents of shame" but not as bad is disingenuous at best.
Further, you don't need someone to be sworn in to "judge their character". While we should not paint all politicians (JLP and PNP) with the same brush, we KNOW who the dubious ones are. What are they now "born again" because they won an election?

Eventide was PNP, as were the others.

My point was to dwell on one side, as I thought things were getting out of hand there.

Incidents of shame were not State sponsored. That is what I was referring to not necessarily DEGREE.

Judging character was meant in refernce to their Governance style and abilities. How you going to judge that beforehand? That is imporatant as w e know both sides have bad eggs, but is how they are controlled/restrained is what is important. That is why I for one was so disappointed the Portia didnt clean house and reign in the perps.

BY all means, go back to the 1980s. If you have things to talk bring them up in this reconcialiation. It can only help if its truthful. I am not here to protect anyone. I am tired of the games. Jamaica is suffering.

[Willi]

Remember, the final count was on Thursday...so announcement Friday...plan weekend and Monday is 1st working day - Tuesday is very soon.

Agreed, based on normal procedures, Tuesday is quick.

[Willi]

Why was the furniture scandal money never repaid?? Why didnt heads roll then?
Start with that one.

Imagine the completely different character that the PNP Govt would have had if the proper tone was set way back when.

Hell, Colin Campbell is still in the Seanate and his comeback was planned (PJ style) if Portia had won.

[Exile]

I feel some of what you feel. Unfortunately, we are not the ones who will make the decisions for healing and for unity. Until ALL Jamaicans decide to come together for Jamaica we are doomed as a people. I truly believe in "one Jamaica, one family", even as a concept at worst. Will Bruce be able to unite the country - I truly hope so. Will he clean house? I doubt it.

[Exile]

All a Jamaica needs a purge!!!

[Willi]

I feel some of what you feel. Unfortunately, we are not the ones who will make the decisions for healing and for unity. Until ALL Jamaicans decide to come together for Jamaica we are doomed as a people. I truly believe in "one Jamaica, one family", even as a concept at worst. Will Bruce be able to unite the country - I truly hope so. Will he clean house? I doubt it.

I dont know if he will, as it will be an uphill battle even within his party. However, for the sake of his political future/legacy, he had better try damn hard. Politics as usual is NOT in hisinterest as I said before. If he doubted before, the election result is the clearest proof of it. If he is smart, he will keep to the line he indicated on Monday night and mash up the dolly house.

Exile, I know you care and I see your difference of opinion and I agree you are entitled to it. That is why I will never "have you up" no matter what, becuase you too want a better Jamaica. Surely there must then be a lot of common ground and we should explore that fully and come to reasonable and livable compromises.

I consider myself to be fair and relatively objective. If PNP was to come up with governance standard that were beneficial and "upful" then I have no problem backing them. Recall that I have more historical PNP connections that JLP. I just dont see this at present.

[Karl]

Why was the furniture scandal money never repaid?? Why didnt heads roll then?
Start with that one.

Even in this, my recollection is it was damn silly actions and mismanagement...a beat up chest/show off/neva see-come see action. Just stupidity.

Unless you have info I never heard of or I have forgotten.


Setting the tone is one thing...maintaining that tone with inefficient and incompettent managers layered throughout our civil service, quasi-government bodies - add the few/yet too many 'tief dem' -indeed the entire society is another matter.

Imagine the completely different character that the PNP Govt would have had if the proper tone was set way back when.

Hell, Colin Campbell is still in the Seanate and his comeback was planned (PJ style) if Portia had won.

The entire Trafigura matter is terrible...but, not more so than the receipt of similar funds from local bodies doing business with the government.

For the life of me, I cannot understand how some believe that taking money from persons and or entities in business dealing with the government by political parties, in those persons minds have the thinking that local money will not taint...but, foreign money does?

It does not make sense to me. Local or foreign...foreign or local if it is considered pay-off then that's it! What is the difference? US dollars or whatever...which can be converted to Jamaica dollars or Jamaica dollars which can be converted into US dollars - what is the difference?

If it is wrong...disgraceful...corruption...matters not the source and or the type of currency - same difference!

PNP from Trafigura...JLP from local sources = same difference!

[Assasin]

wha you a talk say? mind certain man hear you as you figet you a part a di foriegn crew that shouldn't even write your opinion?

One thing I hope is Bruce can realise that him nuh owe the JLP much, instead the JLP owe him. Him nuh have that huge baggage so with that and the close election win him better start acting in the interest of Jamaica and not party. I do believe leadership can make a difference and if Bruce nuh perform in 3 years time I will be riding someone else if they can articulate a plan. Mi not for Portia nor am I for Bush, mi nuh like leader who say just trust me but leaders who explain their actions and provide leadership