The debate between Audley and Omar

[Comment]

gave me a dramatic and candid insight into the way the two men (and I suppose their parties) think.

The woman from the Observer asked Omar to explain how he would finance all the JLP's proposals since she was dissatisfied with Audley's explanation because it was not specific enough and she couldn't understand its workability(!?). I thought it was an unusual and silly question.

But then the minister of finance said the most extraordinary things in answering that crystallized for me why most people on this forum, and everybody in the PNP and really most Jamaicans are unable to fathom how these programs can and should be paid for. You see we have become so used to the incredibly inept and blinkered and reactionary thinking of this finance minister, and his unsophisticated and crude solutions that we no longer, based on most of the posts here, have a concept of the core functions of a minister or ministry of finance.

Omar said the ONLY WAYS that he could do it was to institute the most massive tax package in the history of Jamaica or increase the debt dramatically or go cap in hand and beg or get debt relief. I don't know if that was any more specific an answer than Audley's, but anyway, it is no wonder that the thinking of otherwise well meaning Jamaicans like Karl and Jawge and Sickko and Mosiah have become so insular. For so long we have been doing it this way that we know of no other. So much so, that when a party like the JLP articulates another way we are unable to even acknowledge or cognize it.

[Mosiah]

Okay. How about if you give that question a try. Go ahead, the floor is yours!

[Comment]

See what I mean, you were unable to cognize what was said by Audley.

[Comment]

Kieth Collister put it this way in the Gleaner

Jamaica 2007 electoral debates: Shaw commands debate
published: Saturday | August 11, 2007


"Audley Shaw (left), the Jamaica Labour Party Spokesman on Finance and Dr. Omar Davies, the Minister of Finance and Planning, during the second in the series of political debates at the Creative Production and Training Centre, Arnold Road, Kingston, last night. - Winston Sill/Freelance Photographer

Opposition Spokesman on Finance Audley Shaw has argued strongly that a new Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) administration would create jobs and ultimately generate growth to pull the country out of its economic woes.

Participating in the second national debate last night, Mr. Shaw sought to dismiss claims from Finance and Planning Minister, Dr. Omar Davies that the JLP was making promises that it could not fund, if it becomes the next administration.

Mr. Shaw insisted that a JLP administration would redirect resources, grow the economy at between six and 10 per cent per annum, reduce the fiscal deficit and earn incremental taxation of between $10 billion and $20 billion annually.

Cheaper funds

He also said the JLP would seek cheaper funds for projects from the multilaterals, including the Inter-American Development Bank and the World Bank.

But Dr. Davies contended that financing for the various promises made by the JLP could only be achieved by implementing a massive tax package, borrowing or from debt forgiveness. Dr. Davies argued that this would increase the fiscal deficit.

However, financial analyst, Keith Collister said it was not correct for the minister to state that the Inter-American Development Bank would not lend money to Jamaica for projects. He also argued that cheaper funds could be obtained from that institution.

Assessing the debate, Mr. Collister said Mr. Shaw seemed better prepared than his opponent, noting that there appeared to be a major upset in terms of expectations.

"I think he (Shaw) has got his message out in terms of growth, jobs, debt management strategies," Mr. Collister said.

Mr. Shaw also said that a JLP administration would dismantle the Ministry of Local Government, but retain the parish councils."


I would disagree with him however when he says "I think he got his message out". The many posts here, like the last one from Mo, are to me evidence of blinkered thinking, brought on by years of Omar's unsophisticated policies, that preempt the successful delivery of any alternative.

[Mosiah]

Right, so I am asking you to break it down for simple folk like me.

Thanks in advance!

[Comment]

Right, so I am asking you to break it down for simple folk like me.

Thanks in advance!

It has already been broken down. Did you not read Collister's views? You are not simple, but your thinking is blinkered. I am not even blaming you; I am blaming the goodly doctor.

He said THE ONLY WAYS to institute those programs is to tax, beg or borrow. You have not sought clarification on what he said. This is because what he said sounds normal to you. This is the way you have been conditioned to think by years of such mind numbing policies. Begging and borrowing have been institutionalized in this country. It is all we know.

There are other ways, that have been articulated, but you are unable to conceptualize them in your mind.

[Karl]

The problem with your comments, COMMENT, is the voters are, indeed most of the country is looking for pretty near immediate relief.

The JLP is suggesting that it shall provide same. - Cannot understand how a good man like Willi is trying to find otherwise? - The JLP puts itself forward as an alternative to the 'rate of progress' under guide of the PNP. I am sure the JLP understands the people...all the people...not a favoured few as happened the last time they were in power...wish for 'accelerated rate of progress'...

...and the JLP pronouncements and ads are geared to give the impression that IMMEDIATELY 'zoooooommmmmm'!

Omar spoke to that!

Well with all the areas the JLP has articulated needs IMMEDIATE ATTENTION...you tell us how that will IMMEDIATELY occur?

[Comment]

The problem with your comments, COMMENT, is the voters are, indeed most of the country is looking for pretty near immediate relief.

The JLP is suggesting that it shall provide same. - Cannot understand how a good man like Willi is trying to find otherwise? - The JLP puts itself forward as an alternative to the 'rate of progress' under guide of the PNP. I am sure the JLP understands the people...all the people...not a favoured few as happened the last time they were in power...wish for 'accelerated rate of progress'...

...and the JLP pronouncements and ads are geared to give the impression that IMMEDIATELY 'zoooooommmmmm'!

Omar spoke to that!

Well with all the areas the JLP has articulated needs IMMEDIATE ATTENTION...you tell us how that will IMMEDIATELY occur?

This immediately thing is a spin that the PNP has orchestrated along with the costs (Mr. Davis gave us a revised estimate of 20 billion!) and to which I think Mr. Shaw delt with. We have spoken of it already here. The promise of free education and hospital registration fees was clearly outlined by Mr. Shaw to be happening immediately and how it would be funded. This has been the plank of their campaigning. They have never deviated from this. You have been sold a notion of immediacy, by people with their own motives.

The whole premise of your questioning is a red herring and has nothing to do with my original post. The essence of my original post is that Omar Davis has been so fixed in his policy choices that we cannot understand or even acknowledge that there is an alternative, even when it is articulated. Karl, your posts in the last few months and your post just now is unequivocal evidence of this.

[Lazie]

The problem with your comments, COMMENT, is the voters are, indeed most of the country is looking for pretty near immediate relief.

The JLP is suggesting that it shall provide same. - Cannot understand how a good man like Willi is trying to find otherwise? - The JLP puts itself forward as an alternative to the 'rate of progress' under guide of the PNP. I am sure the JLP understands the people...all the people...not a favoured few as happened the last time they were in power...wish for 'accelerated rate of progress'...

...and the JLP pronouncements and ads are geared to give the impression that IMMEDIATELY 'zoooooommmmmm'!

Omar spoke to that!

Well with all the areas the JLP has articulated needs IMMEDIATE ATTENTION...you tell us how that will IMMEDIATELY occur?

Then when me say unuh nuh have nuh sense unuh vex. In the 70s unuh allow Manley fi wreak the country over 8 years then expected the JLP to correct it in 2. Now unuh allow the same set of clowns to fock it up for 18 years now yuh talk bout immediate relief? Maubid .. yuh must understand why dem using the middle passage to teach statistics.