Seaga: Credit me for the Mecca !

[OJ]

you been there since he died? but thats beside the point in Ja we have roads building and schools after PM and leaders.. I dont care about Cuba

[Reggaedoc]

you been there since he died? but thats beside the point in Ja we have roads building and schools after PM and leaders.. I dont care about Cuba

What exactly do you care about OJ?. I don't think you care about Jamaica or should I say you can't possibly care about Jamaica and be sympathetic to a person who created the greatest politically sanctioned criminal enterprise, certainly in the Caribbean and possibly in the entire western hemisphere and which continues to wreak havoc on poor Jamaicans and will continue for decades to come. So you not being concerned about Cuba doesn't mean anything to this observer.

[Reggaedoc]

This is an interesting take.. Do you think when TG was created the intent was for it to be a criminal enclave? I would think it was quite the opposite and you would need to understand what it was before. Uninformed argument if you ask me. On the point of naming the road this this is simply tribalism at play. When the PNP is in they name what they want after anyone, and so too the JLP and as it is JLP is playing catch up so why not name the road after Eddie. In a perfect world we would have a better process of naming monuments that took it outside of politics but we dont so it is what it is.
The agrument that Eddie was not in power when the road was build so are we saying Eldimire built the Eldimire road in mobay or mnadella built Mandella highgway....

YES. I do think TG was created to perpetuate political crimes; and YES those political criminals transferred their skills and political protection to committing social crimes. Yes, yes and yes.

[Willi]

Seaga created the monster, but it grew out of his control

This is why Dudus prospered when JLP was long out of power.

Dudus tek over in 1991, the day his father was killed and his brother buried in 1991. JLP lost power in 1989.

How the hell did Dudus get so big?

Jim Brown did indeed get big in the 1980s with the posse thing (as did Delroy Uzi Edwards in his PNP origin gang), but that was due to his connivings with Columbia, etc. It is not in Jamaican 'Tician interest for their gunnarks to make external, independent links!

Yes, our politcicians played with fire and we got burnt, as the fire got out of control and no extinguisher nearby.

[Reggaedoc]

Seaga created the monster, but it grew out of his control

This is why Dudus prospered when JLP was long out of power.

Dudus tek over in 1991, the day his father was killed and his brother buried in 1991. JLP lost power in 1989.

How the hell did Dudus get so big?

Jim Brown did indeed get big in the 1980s with the posse thing (as did Delroy Uzi Edwards in his PNP origin gang), but that was due to his connivings with Columbia, etc. It is not in Jamaican 'Tician interest for their gunnarks to make external, independent links!

Yes, our politcicians played with fire and we got burnt, as the fire got out of control and no extinguisher nearby.

Well that's right. Seaga created it. If he never did then there would have been nothing to "get out of his control".
He intentionally created it as a political criminal enterprise that morphed into a social criminal enterprise. Period. Name the place after him and nothing else. That is my opinion.

[Willi]

What???

Yuh never heard of Tony Spaulding (Burry Bwoy and FeddahMop sponsor)and before him Wills O. Isaacs?

One provocation led to escalation and fire fi fire.

Isaacs is the true match lighter and Seaga was the gasoline provider. Spaulding was the perfect provacateur.

Issacs start beat, stab and eventually shot dutty labourite in Kgn, Seaga razed Back o' Wall and kick out the neutrals (mostly rasta a few PNP) with bulldozers. Seaga also retaliated against Isaacs with fyah fi Fyan and blood fi blood.

PNP come into power in 1972 and Spaulding built Jungle as a foil to Tivarli and ethnically cleaned the area with guns. He then went to his protoge Portia in DC Tavares Gdns and ethnically cleansed the laybahrites and chase them out to Central Village and Tawes Pen in Span Town. Seaga then create a bunker in Tivarli. Meanwhile Massop and Bucky Marshall of Matches lane start to get close to Bob Marley and arrange peace truce...

Wild times that effed up the country and not one of our prominent Ticians of that era had clean hands. Each side try demonize the other but 2 side did a tango..

[OJ]

That’s not mature or sensible reasoning. If you are not aware do a bit of research. Ignorance or tribalism helps no one

[Rudi]

I am curious what said of Tivoli so far can be disputed by 'research'. Not even the Tivoli ites dispute that.

[Reggaedoc]

That’s not mature or sensible reasoning. If you are not aware do a bit of research. Ignorance or tribalism helps no one

You are absolutely right; " ignorance or tribalism helps no more" and never helped them or Jamaica at anytime. That is what you need to go on a soap box, in the middle of TG playfield, with a bullhorn, and declear to the Seaga-puppets who are still there.

[Reggaedoc]

Ironic some would say he should win an award..

Yes, he should win an award, The first Jamaican politician to do a life sentence in prison.

[Don1]

Yes, he should win an award, The first Jamaican politician to do a life sentence in prison.

LOL!!! Mi spleen!!

[OJ]

My point is the construction of a self contain state, dwelling, recreation, medical, commercial ect is actually a case study. The fact that it has a high level of criminality and is fact a garrison does not detract from the intent. I think well thinking people can separate what the outcome is and what the intent and creation of such and environment are . That simply my point , I am not saying TG is the greatest place in the world but the blueprint is in fact a case study.

[OJ]

whats your point you clearly do not understand what we are discussing.

[Sir X]

LOL...tell im bout im fada, fren and mada , OJ .I think as usual your tribal mindset has you ignoring that you cant seperate the reality of T.G from its creator or author.

Talking about intent when the author of its intent and reality are the same is a joke, rooted in you guessed it Tribalism.

E.g you intend to fix your car with your money but instead drank it out,seperate the intent from the reality when you are the holder of the currency,the blame can only lie on your head,whatever the intent.

[Reggaedoc]

My point is the construction of a self contain state, dwelling, recreation, medical, commercial ect is actually a case study. The fact that it has a high level of criminality and is fact a garrison does not detract from the intent. I think well thinking people can separate what the outcome is and what the intent and creation of such and environment are . That simply my point , I am not saying TG is the greatest place in the world but the blueprint is in fact a case study.

Honestly my friend, " Do you think Seaga's Tivoli Gerdens was or is a success or failure in social engineering?". Quite frankly, I think it was a total failure and it was and is mostly successful as a criminal enclave that has set the standard for criminality and garrisomism in Jamaica, the Caribbean and perhaps the entire western world. Never mind the clinic, the school and if you want to throw in the marching band feel free to so do. DISGRACE!!!.