I would like to analyze Brucie's

[Willi]

This is NOT an info security issue. The IT systems were not breached by outsiders. This is internal security and the policies of the indiv. bank that may be in question.

I differ with most people about this. I think the worker should be awarded an Order of Merit or at least a Commander of the order of Distinction if the motivation was to protect the sovereignty of Jamaica.

I think Portia blundered. She should have expelled all those involved with the shenanigans, assuming that she was not herself involved. I give her the benefit of the doubt.

[Muadib]

G,

Several things.

1) I resent being called Labourite or PNP for that matter. I consider myself ABOVE the monkey business I see portrayed. However, like everyone, I have the right to choose what Karl calls the lesser evil. Given the record of the PNP Govt in the last 18 years, it is a no-brainer...despite coming from long time Daddy Manley PNP roots. Daddy Manley on balance was the best politician we have had in our history.

What is best for JAMAICA is what I crave...I have no undying loyalty to any.

2) Off-shore banking and financial centres are not necessarily the same things. We could develop a hedge fund centre, and insurance centre, a private banking centre, a mutual funds centre and many other flavors or combinations thereof.

3) The Trafigura scandal DOES have the potential to hurt this development, but an even bigger threat is Jamaican's propensity to gossip and NOT keep secrets. The raiding of Olint, the politicized Central Bank and general financial mismanagement are even greater deterrents. Regarding the Trafigura incident and the red herring of banking secrets broken, I can only give a telling analogy.

Is it not true that in almost ALL Financial centres, there exists an obligation to REPORT suspected money laundering?? Where does one find ABSOLUTE banking secrecy?? Certainly NOT in Switzerland! They have treaties with the US. Maybe Austria as banking secrecy is embedded in their CONSTITUTION. Did you know that UBS Private banking employees have been recently found to be ripping off their clients, who are now suing the Bank? There is a $200K fine for leaking banking scerets in Switz, along with jail time, so legislation and enforcement does go a long way.

Finally, there is the MORAL question. Does banking secrecy trump whistle-blowing? In the UK, the Trafigura scandal would probably be viewed as HIGH TREASON!! This is an exceedingly serious matter, if the Govt is seen to be in the pocket of a foreign entity. An ABSOLUTE breach of trust and sovereignty. This perfidy trumps secrecy in my books. This alone should have brought down the Govt and tells me that our system is broken.

Addendum,
Though Switz was officially neutral in WW2, there was complicity. Proof of this is that UBS and other Swiss Banks had to repay $1.5B to a pot to compensate Jewish depositors. Their money was stolen by the banks. Dont think that Off shore banking equals purity, very often the opposite is true.

Respect is due... yuh actually tek the energy...

That would be like me taking the time to give directions to a Monkey from Hope Zoo on how to get to UWI.

[Sickko]

I stayed out of this argument as I don't think i am qualified to add anything but one question Willi, compare for me what would happen in the US if this Trafigura thing had taken place there

[Willi]

Respect is due... yuh actually tek the energy...

That would be like me taking the time to give directions to a Monkey from Hope Zoo on how to get to UWI.

Ben!!!

It is time to stop the disrespectful name calling.

Jawge was very deferential in his questioning and despite what you may thing of his view, you gotta respect the PERSON. Jawge is NO idiot, I can guarantee you that. We may not agree and his perspective may be very differnt, but he is a pleasure to discuss with if you take the time and play nice.

I know you feel frustration with the situation in Jamaica, but at the end of the day we all want the best for our country and I think we will all be happy if we see apparent and self evident progress, no matter who forms the Govt.

[Willi]

Ahhh,

Very good question.

This is one of my fundamental disagreements with the present JLP. The mad rush to US style goverance is ill-advised. It is my view that the US system is cracked and that we will see more and more the shortfalls of it. Look at all that Bush has gotten away with!

In the UK, with a properly functioning Westminister style model, the Govt would have fallen within a week...no question! Sme should have happened in Jamaica...at least a very close shave with a no confidence motion.

It is my view that we need to tweak our implementation of the West. "moggle" and not try to rush headlong into a flawed US style governance "moggle".

[Muadib]

Ben!!!

It is time to stop the disrespectful name calling.

Jawge was very deferential in his questioning and despite what you may thing of his view, you gotta respect the PERSON. Jawge is NO idiot, I can guarantee you that. We may not agree and his perspective may be very differnt, but he is a pleasure to discuss with if you take the time and play nice.

I know you feel frustration with the situation in Jamaica, but at the end of the day we all want the best for our country and I think we will all be happy if we see apparent and self evident progress, no matter who forms the Govt.

You really believe Jawge is interested in cogent analysis of the Trafigura affair as it pertains to Off-Shore Banking success ?

Yuh stay deh mek Jawge fool yuh.

What you are doing is encouraging folly... look at the idle statements from Siccko regarding Butch Stewart questioning his investment in Jamaica ?

Is eiddah dem fool or dem forming the fool.. either way yuh cyaan entertain dem summn deh..

[Lazie]

I stayed out of this argument as I don't think i am qualified to add anything but one question Willi, compare for me what would happen in the US if this Trafigura thing had taken place there

God Bless America! The US Attorney, the FBI and any other agency would be on the case once it buss. In Jamaica the Attorney General defended the culprits as fi the police force? Mi cyaan laugh.

Whosoever leggo the information would be regarded as a hero (term dem love use). In Jamaica unuh wanted to burn di bank employee at the stake while the culprits walk free.

The American media would be on it until smady guh a jail, inna Jamaica ... God Bless Mutty, Betty Ann Blaine and Mark Wignall.

In America Colin Campbell would be in jail ... in Jamaica him still in the Senate and is an integral part of the PNP election campaign.

When mi say Jamaica is not a real world country ... unuh tink a joke?

[Jawge]

Willi it was never my intent to label you as a labourite. It's
just a tactic I use at times to harry opponents. We have known each other since the Golden age (a time when logic, reason and knowledge flowed as the river nile would) of the forum. Over time we became friends and have mutual respect for each other. I value you friendship Willi (especially from a man of your character) hence I wouldn't risk destroying such friendship.

Okay now let's get down to business: number 1, I will leave alone because we have discussed this (offline) and I know where you stand. I myself have stated my position in ja's interest (i guess we sort of differ on the route to the common good for JA).

I will now address number two and three in post. Willi we have to return to the funamental principle of banking (Trust). We just cannot have it both ways: It's fact that all major corporation will bend the rules in the game of capitalism. If you work for an institution and come across certain info, you cannot just give it to a politician for natioanl TV. We could get philosophical about this and ask; which major INTL corporation runs a clean ship and is without sin? How many of Us worked high in the corportae chain and found out that our firm did business or had interest in apartheid back in the days? Did we run to the media or we kept on working?

Information security (and IT is but one aspect) and confidentiality is of paramount importance today's market. corporations lose market share because of simple leaks. Despite your eloquence on Morality and breach of trust; this security is still needed. You seem concerned about Govt. in the pocket of Corporations. Willi I don't think you want to dig deep here. Is the opposition free from corporate grasps? How many world Govt.s are tied in? We would have a financial crash if the whole truth of this world should come out.

There is no medal of honour to be given here. What I saw was a leader who looks and thinks short term (hasty to make judgement calls). Now the same house he tried to destroy he claims that he wants to build. When that info was given to him he should have held it but not use it. Why? this is not the 50s, we are now in the global village. No matter what you say major corporations will judge his govt. differently. Willi we can talk offline about laws and banking secrecy because what is out in the public is just a tip of the iceberg. Brucie showed that our hiring practices are poor and we are not ready to be players in the high stake game of offshore banking.

Side bar: All major corporations deal one way or another with world govts.

Thanks for your time and respect sah.

G,

Several things.

1) I resent being called Labourite or PNP for that matter. I consider myself ABOVE the monkey business I see portrayed. However, like everyone, I have the right to choose what Karl calls the lesser evil. Given the record of the PNP Govt in the last 18 years, it is a no-brainer...despite coming from long time Daddy Manley PNP roots. Daddy Manley on balance was the best politician we have had in our history.

What is best for JAMAICA is what I crave...I have no undying loyalty to any.

2) Off-shore banking and financial centres are not necessarily the same things. We could develop a hedge fund centre, and insurance centre, a private banking centre, a mutual funds centre and many other flavors or combinations thereof.

3) The Trafigura scandal DOES have the potential to hurt this development, but an even bigger threat is Jamaican's propensity to gossip and NOT keep secrets. The raiding of Olint, the politicized Central Bank and general financial mismanagement are even greater deterrents. Regarding the Trafigura incident and the red herring of banking secrets broken, I can only give a telling analogy.

Is it not true that in almost ALL Financial centres, there exists an obligation to REPORT suspected money laundering?? Where does one find ABSOLUTE banking secrecy?? Certainly NOT in Switzerland! They have treaties with the US. Maybe Austria as banking secrecy is embedded in their CONSTITUTION. Did you know that UBS Private banking employees have been recently found to be ripping off their clients, who are now suing the Bank? There is a $200K fine for leaking banking scerets in Switz, along with jail time, so legislation and enforcement does go a long way.

Finally, there is the MORAL question. Does banking secrecy trump whistle-blowing? In the UK, the Trafigura scandal would probably be viewed as HIGH TREASON!! This is an exceedingly serious matter, if the Govt is seen to be in the pocket of a foreign entity. An ABSOLUTE breach of trust and sovereignty. This perfidy trumps secrecy in my books. This alone should have brought down the Govt and tells me that our system is broken.

Addendum,
Though Switz was officially neutral in WW2, there was complicity. Proof of this is that UBS and other Swiss Banks had to repay $1.5B to a pot to compensate Jewish depositors. Their money was stolen by the banks. Dont think that Off shore banking equals purity, very often the opposite is true.

[Sickko]

I preffered Willi's explanation..minus the emotionalism and finger pointing.

[Willi]

G,

Yuh know me and yuh diffrant, so everything is cool man

I agree with certain aspects of your post but for diff reasons. I think we have a clutural issue wrt BANKING. Secrecy is not our thing.

However, the medal was for the leaker...not Bruce. Recall I said if the INTENTION of the leaker was not petty politics but National interest.

This is not about Corps. dealing with Govt. This is about foreign entities with undue influence. This is TREASON. plain and simple. I dont care who is the perpetrator, be it Seaga, Buce, Mike, PJ, etc...Treason is treason. Recall the statement by Mike in 1983..breach of solemn trust. The highest trust is between Govt and its people.

Again I say, isnt money laudering an obligation to report? To me treason is even on a higher plane! Dont mek dem fool yuh.

And Yes, i know the full. if U have seen my posts over the years, U should know that very likkle skunkworks have gotten by me. I could tell U things about America U would never believe.

[Lazie]

Expected! I guess if it was a JLP official you'd have no problem with it. Lets hope if the JLP win Bruce deal wid di culprits.

[Willi]

Willi it was never my intent to label you as a labourite. It's
just a tactic I use at times to harry opponents. We have known each other since the Golden age (a time when logic, reason and knowledge flowed as the river nile would) of the forum. Over time we became friends and have mutual respect for each other. I value you friendship Willi (especially from a man of your character) hence I wouldn't risk destroying such friendship.

Okay now let's get down to business: number 1, I will leave alone because we have discussed this (offline) and I know where you stand. I myself have stated my position in ja's interest (i guess we sort of differ on the route to the common good for JA).

I will now address number two and three in post. Willi we have to return to the funamental principle of banking (Trust). We just cannot have it both ways: It's fact that all major corporation will bend the rules in the game of capitalism. If you work for an institution and come across certain info, you cannot just give it to a politician for natioanl TV. We could get philosophical about this and ask; which major INTL corporation runs a clean ship and is without sin? How many of Us worked high in the corportae chain and found out that our firm did business or had interest in apartheid back in the days? Did we run to the media or we kept on working?

Information security (and IT is but one aspect) and confidentiality is of paramount importance today's market. corporations lose market share because of simple leaks. Despite your eloquence on Morality and breach of trust; this security is still needed. You seem concerned about Govt. in the pocket of Corporations. Willi I don't think you want to dig deep here. Is the opposition free from corporate grasps? How many world Govt.s are tied in? We would have a financial crash if the whole truth of this world should come out.

There is no medal of honour to be given here. What I saw was a leader who looks and thinks short term (hasty to make judgement calls). Now the same house he tried to destroy he claims that he wants to build. When that info was given to him he should have held it but not use it. Why? this is not the 50s, we are now in the global village. No matter what you say major corporations will judge his govt. differently. Willi we can talk offline about laws and banking secrecy because what is out in the public is just a tip of the iceberg. Brucie showed that our hiring practices are poor and we are not ready to be players in the high stake game of offshore banking.

Side bar: All major corporations deal one way or another with world govts.

Thanks for your time and respect sah.

BTW, Trafigura CEO nuh still in jail.

Dem not rule benders, dem criminal. Pulluting the waters of the African coast. Some real snakes out there.

[Jawge]

Willi come on man I know
that you know better. Many corporations that we hold in esteem did way more than just pollute waters in Africa, matter of fact it may have been better if they had just polluted the water. We are just seeing the ones that are being exposed. Best we leave the exploitation of Africa argument alone and just look to make abetter future.

[Muadib]

I preffered Willi's explanation..minus the emotionalism and finger pointing.

Yes, Willi is diplomatic... and he never actually addressed what would happen in America..

[Muadib]

Did you see Willi response to what would happen in UK under the same circumstances ?

Continue with your campaign.... it helps to understand just how compromised one can get when it comes to religion.

Your 'argument' is quite pathetic.