The Good Ole USA?

[USAF]

"That is a lie!" - The only thing I'll say to that response is you're lucky we're on a site, because you sure as HELL wouldn't like it if we were discussing this face to face & you called me a LIAR............With that, you can go discuss this or any other topic with someone else.

[Karl]

"That is a lie!" - The only thing I'll say to that response is you're lucky we're on a site, because you sure as HELL wouldn't like it if we were discussing this face to face & you called me a LIAR............With that, you can go discuss this or any other topic with someone else.

You seem to have taken an interpretation of what I said as a personal comment. It was not meant to be. It was said in the context of a discussion on a widely discussed matter - TPP and its complementary parts. This discussion is in the context of my lead post and therefore arguments being put forward by 'the talking heads' and politicians.


So, I never called you a liar! I was referencing the stated position by some...some 'talking heads' and politicians. I am discussing the matter form the point of view of our taking a more careful look at what 'is being promoted in the media'.

You vehement objection hit me forcefully. I can see how you thought that was an attack on you personally. I therefore unreservedly offer my apology.

...and yes, it is great we were not speaking face to face if your reaction would have been as you stated.
- However, the nuances of the spoken word may well have got across my point without your thinking it was a personal attack.

- Then there is the matter of how many of your blows I would have taken without response...if I were in a physical state to respond?

--------------

Sorry, boss.

[Karl]

I am just reading this!

LOL.........You do realize that I'm telling you that I don't care if it's Republican, Democrat or Libertarian - I DO NOT TRUST POLITICIANS.

Only in YOUR WORLD would anyone think that any trade deal that benefits a few corporations & to hell with benefitting the country "has to be made".

OK! You do not trust any politician.
I do not go that far as I have to make choices, I would repeat: all politicians present selves most often with an eye on how that presentation affects their political fortunes, so I look carefully at what they 'tell'! ...and make my own decisions on same.

Yes Karl!!! The TPP will undergo modifications & amendments - Just like NAFTA, right???.......Do you think before talking/posting???.......Do you know what FAST TRACKING is???

Yes, I do!
Your arguments below suggest to me; you do not!!!

Your last sentence is further PROOF that you have not read/seen this "trade deal"................How many Members of Congress voted FOR the Iraq war knew they were being LIED to & didn't have the "real" information???

Let us be brutally honest: Neither of us have read the trade deal!
Tell how many pages of the official proposed legislation and the supporting documents are there?

Tell you have read them? Forget understanding every last piece of the proposed legislation?

I have read *snippets of the proposed legislation. ...and I have biases. The bias lies in need to be 'in the game' = having the power to influence trade between and among those that fall within the parameters of what is being attempted.

*...and all of the information gathered is via media outlets - print and electronic.

Aside: A starting point - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership - with leads to tremendous numbers of other information.

[USAF]

OK!!! Cool!!!
The reason why I keep asking you if you've read/seen the TPP is because I know that you haven't. Only a handful have, & I was luck to be one of the handful. I have seen all 29 chapters & more, PLUS I've seen what's happening on the Hill, in terms of "visits".

NOTE: If the TPP passes, as it is, I & my business would benefit. This deal benefits me, BUT I see what it could do to hundreds of millions of people..........It is nothing more than giving corporations in the U.S. & around the world FREE REIGN to do whatever they want, whenever they want, with no regards for the overall welfare of the average citizen.

[USAF]

Yes Karl!!! I have read the TPP, and it would benefit me & my business, BUT the average joe would get "screwed", once again.

[Karl]

OK!!! Cool!!!
The reason why I keep asking you if you've read/seen the TPP is because I know that you haven't. Only a handful have, & I was luck to be one of the handful. I have seen all 29 chapters & more, PLUS I've seen what's happening on the Hill, in terms of "visits".

NOTE: If the TPP passes, as it is, I & my business would benefit. This deal benefits me, BUT I see what it could do to hundreds of millions of people..........It is nothing more than giving corporations in the U.S. & around the world FREE REIGN to do whatever they want, whenever they want, with no regards for the overall welfare of the average citizen.

Let us agree to disagree.
I think trade deals are an inevitable part of future lives. They will not go away. They will become more necessary.

Nations have to be in the game to influence how relations in commerce and other areas of life affect their citizens. E.g. TPP and its complementary parts affect not only trade but every facet of life.

[Don1]

Karl;523863]It would be someone who is walking around with eyes closed and plugs in ears who does not know that all corporate entities do not have as a primary goal manipulation and exploitation of markets for their own good.

The agenda of such corporate entities is always to spin for own purposes.

Please take another look and you shall see the parameters within which I have framed my questions?

In case you missed it:
- It has everything to do with the realities of the world within which we live and the pace at which a/the one world market is growing.

- It recognizes that there are nations within which often production costs are faction of that which holds in the USA and that coupled with the US consumers' insatiable appetite for products of comparable quality at lowest unit cost.

- It recognizes that jobs 'flying' outside the shores of US is not as a result of trade deals but the foregoing facts plus the thirst for greater and greater return on investment of not only per se the multinational and transnational US companies and local based US companies search for the lowering of production costs but the relentless thirst for healthier and healthier bottom-line by those inclusive of the ordinary worker with interest in investment portfolios.

These are the same people with blood thirst for increased returns on investment who are ruing the loss of US jobs.

Boss, jobs being lost to overseas entities drive the politicians to broker trade deals to slow the pace of loss of jobs, buy time to lower production costs or develop new replacement jobs...and to keep open or increase markets for US produced goods.

Example: Let me ask if you can see the US market for US manufactured automobiles absorbing the current US production of automobiles? If the US needs its overseas markets and needs expansion of same, what would be the impact on jobs in the USA if those overseas markets contract or disappear?

Unsurprisingly you have completely missed...or misunderstood the main thrust of my argument

A US Government treaty written by and designed for large multinational firms is NOT about jobs or the general welfare of society

It is about the general welfare of multinational corporation owners... i.e. the oligarchs whose machinations are running the planet into the ground

I will tell you that the current cry to kill this trade deal on the premise that US jobs will be lost is an argument being promoted that aims to blind the audience to the realities of our every shrinking world boundaries.



How do you explain your first premise above and this your second?

Having admitted that you have not read the basic tenets of the TPP but apparently merely swallowed the Obama propaganda wholesale... You cannot from that standpoint claim ANY significant knowledge of what the TPP is about.

Consequently you have zero foundation to be critical of my arguments save regurgitating the propaganda you get from political hacks and corporate media spin doctors

Of course!
What else do you thing is the DUTY of leaders - public and private - and entities based in our country?

If that was not the aim they would be derelict in execution of their duties as our leaders.

In my view the duty of leaders is not to work primarily in the interest of the tiny group of elites manipulating government... but for the benefit of the majority.

If you hold a different opinion...gwaan duh yuh ting supporting dat Babylon agenda yes

Those are moves being made as counter...or, if you wish, the other side of the coin. That is, China is doing exactly what the US did in the past! ...and to the Chinese people and their allies would be derelict in execution of their duties as their leaders...
if they were not so doing! In a nutshell, the other side of the coin!!!

Ok...glad you're now up to speed.

Your original analysis spoke NOTHING of the huge geopolitical implications surrounding the TPP.
So I felt it necessary to use this as a teachable moment on world affairs by exposing that geo-strategic element

This last is, a jumbled mess! ...inclusive of contradictions and mumbo-jumbo! If I did not assess you by your past well reasoned position, I would think "spoken like a true politician". "Mix dem hup wid fast talk and close di deal wid bull-sh!@%#$$$!"

No worries if someone disagrees with my cogent, insightful and informed opinions ....But I don't do that "jumbled mess" thing anywhere, anytime or anyhow

Lastly, talk of the demise of USA is premature!!!

This is emotional & alarmist rubbish you're posting.

I haven't seen anyone here post of the "demise of USA"....certainly not me.

If you feel any post of mine has that message...please point it out so I can address your misunderstanding

[Don1]

Don1!!! Remember when I wrote that "things aren't always what they seem" and to "watch the ride"???..........Well there are "back-door" dealings between the U.S., China & Russia, who will be joining the TPP later.
You're already aware that the MAJOR focus of the TPP is not TRADE........The MAJOR focus of the TPP is to impose limits on domestic food safety, health, environmental and other policies, and the governments won’t release the text to the public.

I hear you boss....

I think the TPP is focused on:

1. Containing China's rise by further locking the EU and countries like Japan, S Korea, Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand and many others into the Western system. A defensive move in response to the $100s of BILLIONS China plans on investing in E Asia, Eurasia, Europe, Middle East, Africa & Latin America.

The US cannot compete with those investments....but will try to wrap countries up with strict "trade rules" which lock out China

2. Ensuring that US multinationals can easily penetrate the markets of member countries (i.e. what Obama calls setting the rules)... shoring up the declining role of the US in global trade...while massively enriching the oligarchs who are responsible for the growing & unsustainable global income inequality

I have zero expectation of Russia or China joining that TPP thing...assuming it gets up and running and powerful. Doing so would mean being vassals of the US and submitting to its continuing global hegemony....i.e. Uni-polarity

Russia, China, India, Brazil, Turkey, S. Africa, Iran and others are decisively moving in the opposite direction... i.e. Multi-polarity
That means trying to decouple from or reduce the impact of the current Western system of global control... and move towards a separate economic/political order which is in its formative stages

More likely imho we'll see 2 large geopolitical & economic blocs competing for resources and other nations' allegiance...Within 15-20 years or so.

Analysts can only speculate who will make the final cut, how that separate (temporary/transitional) order will operate and what global impact it may have

When the world goes through such tectonic shifts...history teaches us that things CAN get ugly...

How yuh basement stay?

[Karl]

Unsurprisingly you have completely missed...or misunderstood the main thrust of my argument

A US Government treaty written by and designed for large multinational firms is NOT about jobs or the general welfare of society

That is what you think!
There is something that speaks to mutually beneficial!

It is about the general welfare of multinational corporation owners... i.e. the oligarchs whose machinations are running the planet into the ground

That is one-half of the aims. The aims of the more than that of multinational corporation owners but also those who work hand in glove with the 'moneyed class'. ...but let me repeat in this case, the interest of the 'moneyed class' and the workers, for different reasons demand a coming together.

...and as you missed it, this treaty - in reality a 'proposed treaty' - like all before it and I dare say those following after, will be modified and 'hauled and pulled'. Do not forget the treaty is being negotiated. ...and long after it has been signed, shall still be open to amendments, modification, additions, etc?

Having admitted that you have not read the basic tenets of the TPP but apparently merely swallowed the Obama propaganda wholesale... You cannot from that standpoint claim ANY significant knowledge of what the TPP is about.

Consequently you have zero foundation to be critical of my arguments save regurgitating the propaganda you get from political hacks and corporate media spin doctors

...and your arguments are posited from a position of having read the TPP? I wonder how you could have done so when the entire document is not even complete? ...and negotiations are still ongoing?

Look...your subliminal inference that you have read it and therefore your arguments are based on such...does not fly!!! We both have not read the proposed treaty.

'I tell you' you are 'sounding' more and more like a politician on each post you make on this issue/matter.

In my view the duty of leaders is not to work primarily in the interest of the tiny group of elites manipulating government... but for the benefit of the majority.

If you hold a different opinion...gwaan duh yuh ting supporting dat Babylon agenda yes

...and as I do not?

Ok...glad you're now up to speed.

Your original analysis spoke NOTHING of the huge geopolitical implications surrounding the TPP.
So I felt it necessary to use this as a teachable moment on world affairs by exposing that geo-strategic element

This is funny! ..bad!

No worries if someone disagrees with my cogent, insightful and informed opinions ....But I don't do that "jumbled mess" thing anywhere, anytime or anyhow

Woooeeee!!!!

So all those references to 'present realities'/current realities', world market-place, ...and inferences on the 'world we live in' flew right over your head?

This is emotional & alarmist rubbish you're posting.

I haven't seen anyone here post of the "demise of USA"....certainly not me.

If you feel any post of mine has that message...please point it out so I can address your misunderstanding

Punching away at the keys without thinking carefully on the meaning of the words and sentences ???

May I suggest a re-read of your initial post on this thread! (That was not a question...nuanced suggestion!!!)

[Don1]

That is what you think!
There is something that speaks to mutually beneficial!

Eureka! Yep I post what I think...and know

That is one-half of the aims. The aims of the more than that of multinational corporation owners but also those who work hand in glove with the 'moneyed class'. ...but let me repeat in this case, the interest of the 'moneyed class' and the workers, for different reasons demand a coming together.

...and as you missed it, this treaty - in reality a 'proposed treaty' - like all before it and I dare say those following after, will be modified and 'hauled and pulled'. Do not forget the treaty is being negotiated. ...and long after it has been signed, shall still be open to amendments, modification, additions, etc?

Karl your first post demonstrated that you were substantially ignorant of the general terms and overall aims of the TPP. I see you're trying to play catch up now. But this is not really impressive

...and your arguments are posited from a position of having read the TPP? I wonder how you could have done so when the entire document is not even complete? ...and negotiations are still ongoing?

Look...your subliminal inference that you have read it and therefore your arguments are based on such...does not fly!!! We both have not read the proposed treaty.

The doc is thousands of pages in length...Can't say I've read it or even want to... Unless smaddy ah pay mi
But I don't swallow the Obama administration propaganda wholesale as you obviously do. I search for alternative viewpoints then make an assessment

Additionally what is contained in the formal TPP doc is only PART of the story... The real deal is in the unpublished SIDE AGREEMENTS the US forces governments to adhere to....Those have serious political implications and often completely negate the national sovereignty of foreign countries. We're very familiar with that tactic in JA


When the treaty was being forced on Europeans a couple years ago, media outlets exposed SOME of the many provisions European governments found objectionable....and I followed that European debate through their outlets.... It was illuminating fo' sure.

'I tell you' you are 'sounding' more and more like a politician on each post you make on this issue/matter.

D1 nuh "sound like" or "follow" politician...from Portia to Obama...
Mi analyze dem an wen dem perform effery...mi bun dem out widout any apology....strait. People who just regurgitate the positions of politicians or support dem blindly....ah unnu ting dat

Mi leff di sycophancy and hero worship of political figures to others

...and as I do not?

By your words you make a convincing case that you don't

So all those references to 'present realities'/current realities', world market-place, ...and inferences on the 'world we live in' flew right over your head?

I doubt there's much useful about the "world market-place" that you can instruct me on. So forgive me if I ignored it

Punching away at the keys without thinking carefully on the meaning of the words and sentences ???

May I suggest a re-read of your initial post on this thread! (That was not a question...nuanced suggestion!!!)

No re-read is necessary... your original post was clear.

Twas basically a very superficial review of the TPP ...as if copied directly from the Obama Administration playbook...which you regurgitated from some Babylon Media Propaganda outlet you watch or read

Like the the proverbial iceberg... 9/10th of the truth is below the surface propaganda. If you want to understand the world and not merely parrot media manipulation....start plumbing those depths.

Warning: It takes lots of time and an open mind. Yuh might affi cut dung drastically pon di TV-watching fi deal wid it

[Karl]

Eureka! Yep I post what I think...and know



Karl your first post demonstrated that you were substantially ignorant of the general terms and overall aims of the TPP. I see you're trying to play catch up now. But this is not really impressive



The doc is thousands of pages in length...Can't say I've read it or even want to... Unless smaddy ah pay mi
But I don't swallow the Obama administration propaganda wholesale as you obviously do. I search for alternative viewpoints then make an assessment

Additionally what is contained in the formal TPP doc is only PART of the story... The real deal is in the unpublished SIDE AGREEMENTS the US forces governments to adhere to....Those have serious political implications and often completely negate the national sovereignty of foreign countries. We're very familiar with that tactic in JA


When the treaty was being forced on Europeans a couple years ago, media outlets exposed SOME of the many provisions European governments found objectionable....and I followed that European debate through their outlets.... It was illuminating fo' sure.


D1 nuh "sound like" or "follow" politician...from Portia to Obama...
Mi analyze dem an wen dem perform effery...mi bun dem out widout any apology....strait. People who just regurgitate the positions of politicians or support dem blindly....ah unnu ting dat

Mi leff di sycophancy and hero worship of political figures to others



By your words you make a convincing case that you don't





I doubt there's much useful about the "world market-place" that you can instruct me on. So forgive me if I ignored it




No re-read is necessary... your original post was clear.

Twas basically a very superficial review of the TPP ...as if copied directly from the Obama Administration playbook...which you regurgitated from some Babylon Media Propaganda outlet you watch or read

Like the the proverbial iceberg... 9/10th of the truth is below the surface propaganda. If you want to understand the world and not merely parrot media manipulation....start plumbing those depths.

Warning: It takes lots of time and an open mind. Yuh might affi cut dung drastically pon di TV-watching fi deal wid it

Empty rhetoric!

[Don1]

Empty rhetoric!

LOL!!

When strong argument mash yuh dung... dats a good way to withdraw yuhself yes

[Karl]

LOL!!

When strong argument mash yuh dung... dats a good way to withdraw yuhself yes

Look I stated my case and you turn a blind eye...what is the point of going on.

Guess you could say the same thing! That is, I do not buy your argument...so again, what is the point of going on!

[Don1]

But I didn't turn a blind eye

I recognized your "case" for the regurgitation of the Obama political propaganda it represents

Gwaan worship dat...yuh free

[Karl]

But I didn't turn a blind eye

I recognized your "case" for the regurgitation of the Obama political propaganda it represents

Gwaan worship dat...yuh free

..and therein you do not see!
My position has nothing to do with Obama. The core principle predates Obama.
That core is, trade among nations is,
- necessary and it is good;

- actual trade among nations is a relentless process that cannot be stopped. It is the matter of each nation's attempts or bloc of nations' attempts to tweek agreements to best suit self/selves.

Specific to the USA; there are some goods and services whereon the USA cannot compete on production and marketing costs!!!! ...ergo there are some jobs that shall 'fly' from the USA. Just a logical outcome of the current realities.