The Good Ole USA?

[Karl]

So the trade deal is being voted on in one branch of Congress and outside there are trade unions opposed to it.

Question: Good for the USA or bad for the USA?

To consider: Can the USA ignore the ability of countries outside of its borders being able to produce goods its citizens crave at cheaper...eeeerrrrr...more favourable unit costs to its citizens?

Can the USA continue to have trade surpluses with countries such as China and others with combined larger markets than exists in the USA if her production costs increasingly take her products out of the hands of consumers?

Can the USA seal her borders to products cheaper...eeeeerrrr....with more favourable unit costs to her citizens?

Can the USA's internal=domestic market sustain her increasing population jobs expectations and living standards?

Your answers to the above and more will decide which side of the vote on the current trade deal your vote falls.

Mine?
A yes, vote!

I think it is 'head in sand' posture thinking we can ignore the realities of this world we live in.

[USAF]

Are you talking about the TPP???

[Karl]

Yes!
I think that is the only trade deal being voted on at the time of my post!

[USAF]

Have you ever read/seen the TPP???..........And what's the difference between the TPP & NAFTA???

Have you ever wondered why the far-right politicians (such as Cruz, McConnell, Rubio, McCain, Ryan, Romney, etc.) & backers (like the Koch brothers, Adelson, etc.), who has fought Obama on BASIC & NECESSARY things like improving the U.S. infrastructure (highways, railways, ports, etc.), universal healthcare, increased minimum wage, improved family & maternity leave & investments in education, are singing his praise on THIS & putting their full support behind the TPP???

[Don1]

Have you ever read/seen the TPP???..........And what's the difference between the TPP & NAFTA???

Have you ever wondered why the far-right politicians (such as Cruz, McConnell, Rubio, McCain, Ryan, Romney, etc.) & backers (like the Koch brothers, Adelson, etc.), who has fought Obama on BASIC & NECESSARY things like improving the U.S. infrastructure (highways, railways, ports, etc.), universal healthcare, increased minimum wage, improved family & maternity leave & investments in education, are singing his praise on THIS & putting their full support behind the TPP???

Now here's someone posing SOME of the right questions

[Don1]

So the trade deal is being voted on in one branch of Congress and outside there are trade unions opposed to it.

Question: Good for the USA or bad for the USA?

To consider: Can the USA ignore the ability of countries outside of its borders being able to produce goods its citizens crave at cheaper...eeeerrrrr...more favourable unit costs to its citizens?

Can the USA continue to have trade surpluses with countries such as China and others with combined larger markets than exists in the USA if her production costs increasingly take her products out of the hands of consumers?

Can the USA seal her borders to products cheaper...eeeeerrrr....with more favourable unit costs to her citizens?

Can the USA's internal=domestic market sustain her increasing population jobs expectations and living standards?

Your answers to the above and more will decide which side of the vote on the current trade deal your vote falls.

Mine?
A yes, vote!

I think it is 'head in sand' posture thinking we can ignore the realities of this world we live in.

Karl...sadly your framing of the issues in this important development leaves much to be desired. This type of framing mirrors what is presented in the corporate media....meaning it's designed for propaganda purposes to disguise the true agendas at play.. Here is some of what's beneath the surface propaganda:

This TPP thingy is basically a ruse to TRY to entrench the global economic control of multi-national corporations and their oligarch owners. It is also a geo-political play to TRY to outflank or neuter the BRICS nations in their plans for a new global economic order...and particularly to limit the rise of China in East Asia and Eurasia. China plans on spending $100s of Billions on its New Silk Road, One Belt-One Road, Asian Infrastructural Development Bank etc initiatives. This is a huge threat to US hegemony in Europe, S Asia..and even into Africa

The US is a spent force financially and cannot compete with the foregoing BRICS & Chinese investments with money of its own...So its basically trying to browbeat its European & Asian vassal states into a "free-trade arrangement"... Only it's NOT free trade.... It's totally gamed to benefit BIG MONEY because the TPP's provisions are written to benefit huge corporations

The TPP's provisions are NOT even written by the US Govt.... but by corporations and their lobbyist lawyer scumbags. That's similar to how MANY US laws are currently written. This is a virtual takeover of Govt by corporate interests...while the Frogs Boil

The TPP is "negotiated" in secret i.e. The deal is presented to countries on a "take it or leave it basis" and they are FORBIDDEN from disclosing its terms to their citizens. Failure to observe this stricture will mean instant sanctioning and/or media "blackballing" ... Which as we know is not good for the "investment climate"

Obama is a mere pawn on this ...being played by the corporations and oligarchs who wield the real power behind the scenes

[Karl]

I understand the distrust we have of the Republicans and the 'knee jeck' reaction that causes opposition to anything they favour. However, what about the trade deals you find troubling?

[Don1]

I understand the distrust we have of the Republicans and the 'knee jeck' reaction that causes opposition to anything they favour. However, what about the trade deals you find troubling?

LOL...Do you even know what's in this so called trade deal??

[USAF]

"I understand the distrust we have of the Republicans and the 'knee jeck' reaction that causes opposition to anything they favour." -
I don't trust politicians, PERIOD.........When I hear my father, Colin Powell & some "old school" Republicans sit & discuss the present Republican party, and either voted Democrat of abstained from voting the last 7 years, it gives you cause for concern.

"However, what about the trade deals you find troubling?" -
A question like that suggests that you have not read/seen the TPP, and that makes me wonder how you're supporting a "trade deal" you haven't read/seen..........NOTE - Reading the TPP is NOT the same as regurgitating what someone tells you is in it.

[Karl]

Karl...sadly your framing of the issues in this important development leaves much to be desired. This type of framing mirrors what is presented in the corporate media....meaning it's designed for propaganda purposes to disguise the true agendas at play.. Here is some of what's beneath the surface propaganda:

It would be someone who is walking around with eyes closed and plugs in ears who does not know that all corporate entities do not have as a primary goal manipulation and exploitation of markets for their own good.

The agenda of such corporate entities is always to spin for own purposes.

Please take another look and you shall see the parameters within which I have framed my questions?

In case you missed it:
- It has everything to do with the realities of the world within which we live and the pace at which a/the one world market is growing.

- It recognizes that there are nations within which often production costs are faction of that which holds in the USA and that coupled with the US consumers' insatiable appetite for products of comparable quality at lowest unit cost.

- It recognizes that jobs 'flying' outside the shores of US is not as a result of trade deals but the foregoing facts plus the thirst for greater and greater return on investment of not only per se the multinational and transnational US companies and local based US companies search for the lowering of production costs but the relentless thirst for healthier and healthier bottom-line by those inclusive of the ordinary worker with interest in investment portfolios.

These are the same people with blood thirst for increased returns on investment who are ruing the loss of US jobs.

Boss, jobs being lost to overseas entities drive the politicians to broker trade deals to slow the pace of loss of jobs, buy time to lower production costs or develop new replacement jobs...and to keep open or increase markets for US produced goods.

Example: Let me ask if you can see the US market for US manufactured automobiles absorbing the current US production of automobiles? If the US needs its overseas markets and needs expansion of same, what would be the impact on jobs in the USA if those overseas markets contract or disappear?

I will tell you that the current cry to kill this trade deal on the premise that US jobs will be lost is an argument being promoted that aims to blind the audience to the realities of our every shrinking world boundaries.

This TPP thingy is basically a ruse to TRY to entrench the global economic control of multi-national corporations and their oligarch owners.

How do you explain your first premise above and this your second?

It is also a geo-political play to TRY to outflank or neuter the BRICS nations in their plans for a new global economic order...and particularly to limit the rise of China in East Asia and Eurasia.

Of course!
What else do you thing is the DUTY of leaders - public and private - and entities based in our country?

If that was not the aim they would be derelict in execution of their duties as our leaders.

China plans on spending $100s of Billions on its New Silk Road, One Belt-One Road, Asian Infrastructural Development Bank etc initiatives. This is a huge threat to US hegemony in Europe, S Asia...and even into Africa

Those are moves being made as counter...or, if you wish, the other side of the coin. That is, China is doing exactly what the US did in the past! ...and to the Chinese people and their allies would be derelict in execution of their duties as their leaders...
if they were not so doing! In a nutshell, the other side of the coin!!!

The US is a spent force financially and cannot compete with the foregoing BRICS & Chinese investments with money of its own...So its basically trying to browbeat its European & Asian vassal states into a "free-trade arrangement"... Only it's NOT free trade.... It's totally gamed to benefit BIG MONEY because the TPP's provisions are written to benefit huge corporations

The TPP's provisions are NOT even written by the US Govt.... but by corporations and their lobbyist lawyer scumbags. That's similar to how MANY US laws are currently written. This is a virtual takeover of Govt by corporate interests...while the Frogs Boil

The TPP is "negotiated" in secret i.e. The deal is presented to countries on a "take it or leave it basis" and they are FORBIDDEN from disclosing its terms to their citizens. Failure to observe this stricture will mean instant sanctioning and/or media "blackballing" ... Which as we know is not good for the "investment climate"

Obama is a mere pawn on this ...being played by the corporations and oligarchs who wield the real power behind the scenes

This last is, a jumbled mess! ...inclusive of contradictions and mumbo-jumbo! If I did not assess you by your past well reasoned position, I would think "spoken like a true politician". "Mix dem hup wid fast talk and close di deal wid bull-sh!@%#$$$!"

Lastly, talk of the demise of USA is premature!!!

[USAF]

Don1!!! Remember when I wrote that "things aren't always what they seem" and to "watch the ride"???..........Well there are "back-door" dealings between the U.S., China & Russia, who will be joining the TPP later.
You're already aware that the MAJOR focus of the TPP is not TRADE........The MAJOR focus of the TPP is to impose limits on domestic food safety, health, environmental and other policies, and the governments won’t release the text to the public.

[USAF]

Karl!!! Go do some research on the TPP & then you'll understand -
1. Why the TPP was negotiated in secrecy primarily by hundreds (the number reported is over 600) of corporate "trade advisors".
2. Why the text of the TPP was hidden from Members of Congress, Governors, State Legislators, the Press, Unions, Environmental Officials, Health & Public Safety Officials, Trade Groups & the Public.
And...
3. Why the TPP was fast tracked.

[Karl]

"I understand the distrust we have of the Republicans and the 'knee jeck' reaction that causes opposition to anything they favour." -
I don't trust politicians, PERIOD.........When I hear my father, Colin Powell & some "old school" Republicans sit & discuss the present Republican party, and either voted Democrat of abstained from voting the last 7 years, it gives you cause for concern.

You do realize that above is a repeat of what I said? ...do you?

I]"However, what about the trade deals you find troubling?"[/I] -
A question like that suggests that you have not read/seen the TPP, and that makes me wonder how you're supporting a "trade deal" you haven't read/seen..........NOTE - Reading the TPP is NOT the same as regurgitating what someone tells you is in it.

You do realize that I gave reasons why not just this trade deal but that trade deals have to be made?

The matter of a country's attempts at trying to get the best deal for itself is never ending. The deals are subject to future idea re-worked or substituted. It is a never ending business. It cannot be any other way. The current deal and its constituent parts will undergo modifications and amendments. No doubt at some future date there shall be a complete revamping. Nothing new (about that)!

Finally, you do know that it has been explained that after initial ratification by Congress that parts are subject to negotiation (see: previous paragraph - context "never ending"!

[USAF]

LOL.........You do realize that I'm telling you that I don't care if it's Republican, Democrat or Libertarian - I DO NOT TRUST POLITICIANS.

Only in YOUR WORLD would anyone think that any trade deal that benefits a few corporations & to hell with benefitting the country "has to be made".

Yes Karl!!! The TPP will undergo modifications & amendments - Just like NAFTA, right???.......Do you think before talking/posting???.......Do you know what FAST TRACKING is???

Your last sentence is further PROOF that you have not read/seen this "trade deal"................How many Members of Congress voted FOR the Iraq war knew they were being LIED to & didn't have the "real" information???

[Karl]

Karl!!! Go do some research on the TPP & then you'll understand -
1. Why the TPP was negotiated in secrecy primarily by hundreds (the number reported is over 600) of corporate "trade advisors".

Do you know of any deal...from the most simple upwards, that has been negotiated openly?

I do not know of any.

2. Why the text of the TPP was hidden from Members of Congress, Governors, State Legislators, the Press, Unions, Environmental Officials, Health & Public Safety Officials, Trade Groups & the Public.

That is a lie!
Sure when deals...any proposed legislation is initially considered it moves through a process of 'a single thought' through to convergence of many minds. It is not about being hidden it is about where the thought originates through to when it becomes public knowledge or at least knowledge on same being available to the public.

An easily understood lie that is noised abroad by opponents of the deal.

And...
3. Why the TPP was fast tracked.

What is meant by 'fast-tracked'?
I think there is a subliminal message being promoted whereon it is intended that the audience assume that 'fast-track' equals 'there is something to hide'. That is far from the truth of what 'fast-track' means.

Finally, let me restate using different words and sentence construction:
1. How can one hope to 'be in the game' when you are neither a player or an official?

2. I go back to the reminder that 'jobs...certain types of jobs...will continue to fly out of the USA'.
On those types jobs:
- We cannot compete on costs!
- Producers and consumers constantly seek lower costs! Producers to 'fatten the bottom line', increase ROI. Consumers to have their dollars buy 'better' (as per satisfying wants and needs = improved standards of living) and more of 'better'.