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Islandman, Up Here

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  • Islandman, Up Here

    Islandman, your discussion here is a very good one, and I would hate to see it get lost, buried way down in that other thread. As such, I sincerely hope you don’t mind me taking your very convincing argument to a new thread where it can become more visible.

    Originally posted by Islandman
    That's the dilemma when an art form is overrun by technology. I am sure portrait and landscape painters were not pleased when photography started going mainstream. Theatre actors were horrified when the motion picture industry was born (you can take and re-take scenes, that is not a real actor!), not to mention how the movie industry felt about TV!
    Originally posted by Islandman

    If history is any guide analogue music and it's skilled practitioners will continue to exist and play a less dominant role but there is no going back to the 70s where music production and distribution is concerned. too inefficient and centralized

    Are we better or worse off for it? I would say taken as a whole music will be better off, but we will have to go find the music and musicians we like and appreciate, they will not be in physical music stores (what's left of them) or on mainstream radio.
    Well stated, boss, and much better and clearer than I could have put it . In fact, I agree 100 percent with everything you’ve said here, with one single exception: the very last sentence you wrote.

    In your analogy of modern photography vs. fine art, yes we are indeed better off, although certain creative aspects have suffered immensely! For example, it’s hard for a photographer to adequately capture the exaggerated emotional appeal of a still life oil painting by, say, Paul Cezanne or Vincent Van Gogh, or a light vs shadow study by a master like Rembrandt, or an emotion-drenched landscape painting by John Constable or William Turner. Styles such as, for example, impressionism have been based on the interpretation of subjects that often divert from the plain reality.

    In the final analysis, however, photography has allowed the common man to bring realism into his life and home (his environment, so to speak). This is indeed wonderful.

    In the case of music, though, can technology replace raw human creativity and vision in the same way? Remember now, while fine arts (painting, drawing, etc.) are focused on capturing reality on to canvas, paper, etc., music is about communicating ones inner creativity. It is not so much realism as much as emotionalism.

    For example, who is going to replace, say Ernie Ranglin’s guitar playing or Oscar Peterson’s piano playing or Charles Mingus’ awesome bass interpretations using technology? Yes, what has gone on before can be re-created with synthesizers, but can the music engineer and producer and other big-wigs create new visionary, creative products such as talented, truly gifted masters like a Dave Bruebeck of Art Tatum could?

    The new technological approach (computers, drum machines) work best with simplistic music like rap, hip-hop, reggae and dancehall. This is why I’ve always agued that, with reference to serious music, we will be worse off.


  • #2
    "The new technological approach (computers, drum machines) work best with simplistic music like rap, hip-hop, reggae and dancehall. This is why I’ve always agued that, with reference to serious music, we will be worse off."

    Go back and listen the riddims or background of Reggae and hear all the different sounds etc. The technology has made some of this music monatonous, even boring in parts. However a good engineer can make some changes. An example of this is Phillip smart using Pro Tools on Dirtsman "Hot this year". I can remember the first time I heard that song, hearing the echo on "dont tresspass" and the background voice saying "ok".

    I still think you have to mix the technology with the good musicians. The problem is it cost a lot more to have a sixpiece band on record than one Engineer looping some sounds. So calculation is made in most case to leave the musican off unless you have a budget to facilitate that. It could cost about 3-6 thousand dollar more to create a basic album with musicians and gurantee nothing in sale.
    • Don't let negative things break you, instead let it be your strength, your reason for growth. Life is for living and I won't spend my life feeling cheated and downtrodden.

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    • #3
      For me, photography does not compete with art. Maybe that was the thinking in the early years. But has our appreciation of art diminished? Don't think so.

      They both have their place. The camera can do what no human hand with a brush could ever do. And vice vera! If only for the knowledge that this was created/done by technology, art as Van Gogh understood it will never die.


      BLACK LIVES MATTER

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      • #4
        Very good points Historian.

        In fact I do believe that some amount (maybe even quite a lot ) of creativity is lost when new technology moves in. But I think it is almost inevitable that it happens. Is it a coincidence that classical music thrived in the era it did? I do not think so.

        Take even in the craft of photography itself. To a certain extent creativity and skill has suffered with the advent of digital photography. The cost of a photo is so cheap and the cameras and editing software are so powerful, that "anyone" can call themselves a professional photographer these days. They may not be great photographers but the technology makes them good and cheap enough to satisfy most peoples expectations.
        Even our good bredren Mosiah once turned up his nose at people like me who learnt photography in the digital age. Oh for the days of the good old Nikon F100 and Kodakchrome film!

        Its very similar to what has happened in music today. So creativity has certainly suffered but think about the benefits we have as well. Today PeterR was able to share a Christmas song on youtube that Lazie (and myself) had totally forgotten about. A young talented producer can experiment in his own studio. OK the hacks can do the same but its hard for me to be against any technology that makes production available to the masses, whatever the industry.

        I do miss the days of great live reggae music from real bands with horns, etc. Just recently I was re-introduced to this little known Aswad song, Justice, that I had really loved when they released it on the Distant Thunder album.

        Always loved Aswad horns section:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIoPNVXidQA
        Last edited by Islandman; December 21, 2012, 05:30 PM.
        "‎It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men" - Frederick Douglass

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        • #5
          Good Points, 'Sass....

          Originally posted by Assasin View Post
          "The new technological approach (computers, drum machines) work best with simplistic music like rap, hip-hop, reggae and dancehall. This is why I’ve always agued that, with reference to serious music, we will be worse off."

          Go back and listen the riddims or background of Reggae and hear all the different sounds etc. The technology has made some of this music monatonous, even boring in parts. However a good engineer can make some changes. An example of this is Phillip smart using Pro Tools on Dirtsman "Hot this year". I can remember the first time I heard that song, hearing the echo on "dont tresspass" and the background voice saying "ok".

          I still think you have to mix the technology with the good musicians. The problem is it cost a lot more to have a sixpiece band on record than one Engineer looping some sounds. So calculation is made in most case to leave the musican off unless you have a budget to facilitate that. It could cost about 3-6 thousand dollar more to create a basic album with musicians and gurantee nothing in sale.
          ‘Sass, I need to explain from the outset that my categorization of reggae and dancehall as “simplistic” was not in any way meant to be a diss of these powerful genres. However, when all is said and done we have to recognize that the strength of both is in the rhythm, because melody and harmony are almost always stripped to their bare minimum!

          Having explained that, I have absolutely no hesitation in agreeing with your final paragraph about the necessity and the inevitability of mixing “the technology with the good musicians.” Well stated, boss, as there can be no other logical way out at this point in our evolution .

          Reggae and dancehall’s strengths, though, have never ever been melody and harmony, but rather rhythm, as I stated above. This is why, to cite one example, those dub B sides -- and also the creative adventures into dub by experimentalists like Augustus Pablo and others -- worked; the focus is always the rhythm (Pablo’s melodies, for example, were very, very simple).

          What impressed me more than the Pro Tool example you gave, however, are experiments like the non-technology-driven efforts made by, for example, Federal Records (recording studio) way back in the 1970s.

          Federal Records back in the 1970s was producing (believe it or not!) subtle arrangement forays such as (eek!) key changes in reggae records! Check, for example, Ken Lazarus’ “Hail the Man” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELdnx209UOY).

          It is minor but important creative stuff like this that impacted me when I was a little youth learning reggae music! Trust me, today’s so-called authorities on reggae music who fill our newspaper pages with their sh!t (translated: their limited knowledge) miss important albeit minor trends like these!

          Continuing with my theme, Federal Records was also experimenting with unusual piano instrumental introductions outside of the norm. With reference to this, check the introduction to Pluto Shervington’s classic, “Your Honour”: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b7liotfQUE)

          I could say pages more, but I have to dash out now. I will continue this exchange later or tomorrow morning.

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