Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

[Lazie]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

Briggie ... yuh think these men are going get a fair trial? Or it nuh matter? I've heard of a case where after the accused was extradicted, he was tried and convicted on completely different charges.

Yuh think the USA would extradict one of their citizens just suh? I don't know ... mi just asking.

[Hortical]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

Lazie (3/19/2007)I'm surprised it took this long for me to be accused of being a supporter. I am not.

Mi a mout yuh still. The US justice system, even thoughit is flawed, is less flawed that what we have in Ja.

[Briggie]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

I don't know what the USA would do, what I do know is that the US plays by its own rules and if as an accused criminal you are plying drugs into the US you have to be willing to be subjected to those rules. Whether they are going to get a fair trial or not is speculative but the point that I wasmaking was that the kingpin designation by itself does not mean that they can not get a fair trial, contrary to the argument that was unsuccessfully being made by their attorneys. For Jamaica their extradition iis a bonus as two alleged criminal masterminds are taken off the streets and our overburdened criminal justice system does not have to deal with them. If our criminals were facing a less burdened and more efficient system criminality may not seem as attractive as it now appears to be.

[Mosiah]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

<DIV>

Briggie (3/19/2007) It seems to be wishful thinking to presume they have been wronged by the criminal justice system.

</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>HAHAHA! The Jamaican justice system?!? There is no justice in our system. These guys could well be drug dealers deserving of the worst punishment people like them deserve, but justice must not only be done, it should be clear to all that it indeed has run its course. </DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>The sad part is our system is too corrupt to handle a trial for these guys, but turning them over willy-nilly to the USA is no better. George Bush has already convicted at least one of them.</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Lazie, thanks for keeping the justice beacon burning in my absence. </DIV>

[Mosiah]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

<DIV>The case you are tralking about is for Armstrong, also of Montego Bay. It seems like the evidence against him is very wishy-washy, yet Jamaica is looking to extradite him.</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Of course, watch some people mek it look like we support criminality.</DIV>

[Shatta]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

Lazie raised aserious, serious point here. Regardless if the men were drug dealers or not as Jamaicans we have to be aware of the slippery slope and demand that in order for them to be extradited their cases have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now having lived in the United States for sometimes now I am aware that Mexico has no extradition treaty with the United States and that one have to respect the soveriegnty of a nation.

Given the history of the United States in regards to its treatment of Africans inGeneral and its callous treatement of the caribbean in particular one should always question the motives of a country that deported Garvey all because he was trying to uplift a race of people that they labled a "problem"

This is the same United States that have helped to keep Haiti in poverty all because they dared to affirm the right to pursue happiness and liberty(Lazie notice how mi show people how hypocritical dah country yah is without breaking a sweat? Now nuff a dem know the US constitution so mi no argue with them, mi punish them by making them think)and selectively removed a Prime Minister that was democratically elected while bombing a nation half a world away in the name of democracy(Lazie pay attention to how we do we thing so next time you won't have to be working so hard. You put forth hard to refute facts and step back when your work is done)

Now for those who didn't see the Mel Gibson movie that the "friends of the negro" tried to kill, go ahead and watch it. We have to question the motives of others when it comes to dealing with us and sometimes we have to think emotionless.

The gentlemen may be guilty or not but the question to be answered is "Did the Government of Jamaica act in the best interest of its citizen regardless of what they thought" today for dem, tomorrow for me.(am I the only one who read to Kill a Mockingbird?)

Drug dealers or not the slippery slope has begun. Try and get someone extradited from the US and see, hell before we even get there so try and get an apology for slavery from them, much less reparation.

respectt

[Mosiah]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

It is indeed a very serious issue, and it is sad to see people who are ready to give the USA the benefit of the doubt even when the evidence they provide against these men might be spurious. Living in the States does that to you sometimes. These people forget that it is their adopted country that has gone 4 years into an illegal and unjustified war with a sovereign nation. The USA is not incapable of inventing all sorts of charges and have them stick as they seek to prove to their people how serious they are in their War in Drugs.<DIV></DIV><DIV>No country must be quick to give up its citizens just like that, to the USA or anybody. If we can't have refuge in our country, then why bother? Then some of us look despisingly at those who may choose to sit through our national anthem or desecrate our national symbols. </DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>On the other hand, Jamaica must do all that it can to ensure that it has the very best justice system it can have. I am wary of those lawyers, and it appears to me that the defence lawyers in this case are no different, that would want to release their clients or have extradition proceedings dropped on some ridiculous technicality. I am happy that our judges didn't buy it this time, as the mere "wording" of some law did not go against the spirit of it.</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>People like Nembhard and Williams must be given a fair hearing and all legal proceedings exhausted before we turn them over to anyone. </DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Nuff respect to Shatta and Lazie on this one!</DIV>

[T.K.]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

Hold on wait...somebody pass mi de pen and paper! I need to record this for the archives to rhatid:

On this day, 2 units into March, in the year 2007 of our lord, Sir Lazie, Sir Mosiah and Sir Shatta have come to agreement onasingletopic for once in their existence. I declare this the End of Days.

I am playing lotto today because is hit mi mus' hitmi numbers demto rhatid. - T.K.

[MdmeX]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

T.K. (3/20/2007)Hold on wait...somebody pass mi de pen and paper! I need to record this for the archives to rhatid:

On this day, 2 units into March, in the year 2007 of our lord, Sir Lazie, Sir Mosiah and Sir Shatta have come to agreement onasingletopic for once in their existence. I declare this the End of Days.

I am playing lotto today because is hit mi mus' hitmi numbers demto rhatid. - T.K.

Call it a meeting of the MINDS!! (Tant)

[Briggie]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

In an unjust legal system you can be assured that the wealthy are able to achieve oftentimes a justice that is not available to the average Joe. I find it interesting that those who argue that Jamaica just turned over these men seemingly do not acknowledge that this matter has been pending since 2004. The final recourse these men had were to appeal to the Privy Council as the appellate process in Jamaica has been exhausted. Our disdain for the policies of the U.S. can not blind us as to the purported wrongs of these two men. Irregardless of Mexico, we do have an extradition agreement with the US and I think it's in Jamaica's best interest when the prosecution of heAvyweight criminals can be handled by other jurisdictions as our courts are under-resourced and overburdened. Our scarce resources can be used for the more than ample case load that the court's have. When we speak of sovereignty we also have to consider that many Jamaicans favor the privy council to the Caribbean Court of Justice, including folks on this forum. Historical and present oppression is not limited to the U.S., the U.K. home of the privy council, is of course a major participant in oppression of many shapes and forms, yet we still look to them for ourfinal say on matters of justice. So many may consider sovereignty in this context also. A.J. Nicholson, hurriedly signed the order for these two men to be extrradited before their attorneys could seek a stay and file to the Privy Council. This perhaps reflects the realityof fighting crime in JA andwanting to rid the system of these two men, even if they were deprived of their right to appeal to the privy council. Personally, I am not saddened because an aggressive approach is necessary in our presentday Jamaica and I would prefer for these two and persons of their ilk to be victimized rather than the vitimization of thethree children killed over the past few days by gun violence.

[Mosiah]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

<DIV>

Briggie (3/20/2007)In an unjust legal system you can be assured that the wealthy are able to achieve oftentimes a justice that is not available to the average Joe. I find it interesting that those who argue that Jamaica just turned over these men seemingly do not acknowledge that this matter has been pending since 2004. The final recourse these men had were to appeal to the Privy Council as the appellate process in Jamaica has been exhausted. Our disdain for the policies of the U.S. can not blind us as to the purported wrongs of these two men. Irregardless of Mexico, we do have an extradition agreement with the US and I think it's in Jamaica's best interest when the prosecution of heAvyweight criminals can be handled by other jurisdictions as our courts are under-resourced and overburdened. Our scarce resources can be used for the more than ample case load that the court's have. When we speak of sovereignty we also have to consider that many Jamaicans favor the privy council to the Caribbean Court of Justice, including folks on this forum. Historical and present oppression is not limited to the U.S., the U.K. home of the privy council, is of course a major participant in oppression of many shapes and forms, yet we still look to them for ourfinal say on matters of justice. So many may consider sovereignty in this context also. A.J. Nicholson, hurriedly signed the order for these two men to be extrradited before their attorneys could seek a stay and file to the Privy Council. This perhaps reflects the realityof fighting crime in JA andwanting to rid the system of these two men, even if they were deprived of their right to appeal to the privy council. Personally, I am not saddened because an aggressive approach is necessary in our presentday Jamaica and I would prefer for these two and persons of their ilk to be victimized rather than the vitimization of thethree children killed over the past few days by gun violence.

</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>"A.J. Nicholson, hurriedly signed the order for these two men to be extrradited before their attorneys could seek a stay and file to the Privy Council." Why is that seemingly okay with you, Briggie?</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Why wait till now? How about if AJ had just sent them off the day they were arrested and then said, oops! Where do you draw the line, Briggie?</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>We all want a peaceful Jamaica, Briggie, and most of us want a just Jamaica. Are the two mutually exclusive?</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>I am concerned and disappointed that you believe we should cart off our citizens to other countries because "...our courts are under-resourced and overburdened." Justice should never have a price. We know it does in many cases, but to just stop the fight for our human rights, that would be unconscionable.</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>I agree though, we need a more agressive approach in our crime-fighting and our justice system, but justice and human rights should never be kicked to the curb. Afterall, justice, truth be ours forever!</DIV>

[MdmeX]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

How comes AJ was defending the Trafiguraites so much (even in the face of corruption), yet him so quick to sign over people life. Makes you wonder!! It's a travesty of JUSTICE!!

[Briggie]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

Mosiah you are absolutely correct when you state that justice and an aggressive criminal justice system should be mutually existent. However, in dealing with the reality of our system as it presently exists in Jamaica, my preference is for a focus on an aggressive criminal justice system, even if it is at the expense of defendant's in the criminal justice system. This is a sad choice to have to make but until we have the two co-existing I will continue to cast my lot with a justice system that can aid in aggressively protecting the rights of the innocent people who live under fear and anarchy. Ideally, we wouldn't be discussing making a choice but practicalities require the same. As far as A.J's actions, assuming that notice was not served indicating that an appeal was going to be made to the privy council he would have been in his right to expedite the extradition. If he was wrong I assume we will hear about iy over the coming days. Madame X you know that as a politician AJ is going to defend his party so let's not criticize him for being a politician. Is it only me who is tired of the JLP beating the hell out of the Trafigura issue. I feel as if Bruce Golding is hoping this issue will bring him the prime ministership. I was really hoping that his vision and plans for the country would be what he would be relying upon to convince Jamaican's of his worthiness to lead the country. With the many issues facing Jamaica it would be cause for optimism that our prospective leadershiphas aplan for success rather than the current government is no good so vote for me approach.

[Shatta]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

MdmeX you seriously a ask that question or you just putting it out there as food for thought. Please allow me to answer that for you.

Its the same reason the Neo cons rush fi execute Saddam as dem no want certain things fi come out.

Jamaica is a small country and you no make no move without "approval" so mi no know who dem a try fool

[Mosiah]

RE: Jamaican citizens have NO rights.

<DIV>

Briggie (3/20/2007) However, in dealing with the reality of our system as it presently exists in Jamaica, my preference is for a focus on an aggressive criminal justice system, even if it is at the expense of defendant's in the criminal justice system. This is a sad choice to have to make but until we have the two co-existing I will continue to cast my lot with a justice system that can aid in aggressively protecting the rights of the innocent people who live under fear and anarchy.

</DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>But Briggie, can't you see what you are doing is convicting suspects even before the trial? I refuse to do that. That could be my brother, my sister, my mother, my son or daughter. That could be me! I'm not going to subscribe to the adage that "if it don't go suh, it nearly go suh". I can just imagine how many innocent people have been lynched in Jamaica and the USA under that rule.</DIV>