Commonwealth electoral provision is an Ass & a Shackle..

[ReggaeMike]

Huh?

Yuh nuh hear mi seh mi didnt have any problems with them?

They are in a different category to Moz and possibly Vanuatu.

Besides, all ah dem country have white/ Middle Eastern and Indian ethnic citizens!

Okay, cool.

[ReggaeMike]

Simple, they could be married to a Jakan. It could also be a marriage of convenience. There are many parameters yuh not thinking of. A conveniently married Mozambican who barely speaks English, but live in Jam for one year is eligible to be PM.

And who is going to vote for this person so that they could become PM?

I do indeed have a Moz. pal married to a Jakan and him love Jamaica like cook food, despite never being resident here. One day he is going to convince his wife (who is Jakan by parent, not by birth!).

And here is proof of the opposite. This Moz pal obviously loves Jamaica and is willing to understand and learn about Jamaica. This is not a random Mozambican off the streets who will never learn English and will never have any inclination to do so.

The simple issue is that to sit in parliament, one should be Jamaican, whether naturalized or not. MY OPINION.

Fine, but I've asked who do you think has more interest in Jamaica? Someone who comes here or someone who leaves here and keeps one foot out the door?

Peopel come to Jam for many reasons...nuff Chinese for example come here for a 2-3 year stay and waps, dem off to Canada or the US.

The Chinese in that example do not come seeking permanent residency.

Finally, Canada give us a very warm time to enter their country and to sit in parliament, or vote, you must be Canadian fuss. Most Cwealth countries dont give us the electoral privileges like the UK des. I am sure you cant up and move to Mozambique and after a year enter dem Govt as a Jakan citizen!

And as I said in my very first post and repeated again:

At most I could see an argument for tweaking the law to allow reciprocity so that rights granted to Jamaicans in other countries would be reciprocated on nationals of those countries, but to allow all or none in terms of dual citizenship is the simpleton way out.

What's wrong with that idea? You don't agree with it? Because you haven't commented on it.

[Willi]

Wi ah argue bout legality and yuh change the goalpoast again to who gwine vote fi dem...

If voting fi dem is all dat matters, why the Dual brouhaha?

Reciprocity does not deal with the issue of one man, 2 masters!

Yuh a look perfection? look to divinity!

[Willi]

Gammas OTHER point...

Think clearly now.

[Gamma]

my yute thanks for the discourse but you're wearing blinders and have completely missed my point altogether. a nuh nutten tho ... have a nice evening. willi gets it so i know i was clear ...... peace.

[Willi]

Hahahaah.

I had all three papers in Canada...AT THE SAME TIME!!! All 3 were necessary.

If a Russian was seeking shelter from possible extradition by a marriage of convenience to a Jakan, what dat mean? Did I give you too much credit in thinking you could see the play? Remember is Jamaican residence we wuz talking bout!

As to me seeking employment in a farrin country,,,YES...at times at I had job, other others I had no job.

I have been ordinarily resident in 5 countries and worked in 5. I have done many permutations, so dont even go there.

Tourists visas are not irrelevant, as it makes it difficult to scout out opportunities. People can afford tickets and still need jobs, as loved ones can pay it on their behalf as an INVESTMENT in the job search... a one off.

I was only qualifed to vote in 2 of those countries...was not in the UK long enuff, Canada does not cater to it and that leaves only Jamaica and Switz, in local elections.

You do not need permanent residency to be ordinarily resident for one year. temp work permits, student visas, and temporary resident permits can make you cross that time hump.

Do you have Any experience in all this, or yuh just talking out yuh derriere?

Hw many countries yuh have lived in for more than 1 year (not military)?

[Don1]

RMike...respect your different perspective. I would say this to buttress my opinion:

1. You anchor your opinion in the reciprocity principle...that's fine. However that is not the only principle worth considering. We should consider our national interest... Jamaica should not see countries absolutely as "friends" ..they are our "friends" only so far as they advance our national interest...and treated accordingly..whether in this Commonwealth construct or not.

2. It's clear that the Jamaican political gene pool is corrupt...more like a political cesspool. This needs to be fixed and new political actors allowed to enter the system with new ideas and perspectives.. international exposure can be a big plus.
Consequently..limiting political involvement to so called Commonwealth countries while ignoring dual citizens from the USA for example is counterproductive..i.e. stupid
By doing so we limit our human resource & overall development potential

3. As far as this Commonwealth sintin goes...I am not a fan. If there is some peer reviewed study conducted that demonstrates a tangible economic/political benefit to Jamaica's continued participation in this effete grouping of nations bound together by their association with the withered & corrupt Brits... fine.

If not, then for me this Commonwealth can go the way of the Empire...put it where the sun don't shine

Respek

[Willi]

Absolute need at the time.

[ReggaeMike]

Wi ah argue bout legality and yuh change the goalpoast again to who gwine vote fi dem...

So in other words you are avoiding this (saying that I'm moving goal posts) because to admit that someone who only spoke Portuguese or knew very, very basic English wouldn't stand a chance to get elected would entirely invalidate your point. If you can't answer that question in the affirmative ("people will vote for him") or the negative ("nobody would vote for that person") it means you brought up the example without expecting to seriously defend it from all challenges to it's inherent weakness (i.e. someone who is unable to get by on their own in a country as they don't know the language spoken by their voters they will never be able to appeal to enough voters to win an election).

If voting fi dem is all dat matters, why the Dual brouhaha?

Well in case you hadn't noticed, most dual citizens are able to campaign for themselves in English no?

For the theoretical Mozambican it would be kind of hard to campaign for himself/herself if he/she knows only Portuguese.

Reciprocity does not deal with the issue of one man, 2 masters!

Odd that you would now take this position given that you stated that you think it should be all dual citizens or none, which means you don't have a problem if the entire house was composed of persons with 2 masters. So why is this an issue now?

And you say I move goal posts.

[ReggaeMike]

Gammas OTHER point...

Think clearly now.

Gamma's other point? He had none. He was implying that for one to be able to exercise this right you needed to be able to visit without a tourist visa. I've been saying that tourism and the right to vote are unrelated. You even just acknowledged that.

[ReggaeMike]

Absolute need at the time.

So you had no job when you shelled out thousands of dollars (or the equivalent of that back in the day) to fly to the UK?

If so, quite a gamble no?

And you went to the UK without first knowing about any potential jobs on offer?

[ReggaeMike]

my yute thanks for the discourse but you're wearing blinders and have completely missed my point altogether. a nuh nutten tho ... have a nice evening. willi gets it so i know i was clear ...... peace.

You're point is ridiculous! I believe Willi only "gets it" because he is just automatically supporting your implication that is "unfair" on Jamaicans to need tourist visas and that somehow the balance is in favour of non-Jamaicans.

It is very obvious that both of you have avoided the stats I provided that would challenge this perception of the balance being against Jamaicans (So many Jamaicans in the UK despite the supposed hurdles, but we don't have the same proportion of Brits in Jamaica). I'm not surprised though, when facts that challenge a cherished perception crop up, people usually ignore it and pretend it has no relevance to their perception.

But carry on. Peace.

[ReggaeMike]

Hahahaah.

I had all three papers in Canada...AT THE SAME TIME!!! All 3 were necessary.

Oi. You thick though boss.

So you had a work permit, a student visa and a tourist visa.

All three were necessary to you, more than likely because of the order in which you got them. Did you get the student visa first and then apply for and get a tourist visa whilst already in Canada as a student? Or was it that you had a tourist visa before you went to school and got a student visa (for which a tourist visa is not necessary beforehand) and a work permit?

Because I've been saying that to get a work permit it is not necessary to have a tourist visa first, but it seems you are implying otherwise.

If a Russian was seeking shelter from possible extradition by a marriage of convenience to a Jakan, what dat mean?

Strangely I dont' see the word "Jakan" in your original post anywhere, do you?

Your post quoted in full below:

Yuh keep moving the goalpost.

All yuh need fi get the residency is a convenient marriage! Look how many Russians used to do it to avoid future extradition.

Ah dat mi a talk bout. Yubh not looking at every angle.

Yuh and Gamma ah talk bout tourist visa and you ah try conflate me and my argument inna dat deh argument.

In any case, Gamma is correct. Once yuh have free access, you can poke around and change yuh status. With the visa wall, dollyhouse mash up!

Did I give you too much credit in thinking you could see the play? Remember is Jamaican residence we wuz talking bout!

Interesting, because I'm sure in my post to which you wrote that response about the Russians I was talking about permanent residency in more than one country. I even used the example of a fictional country so as to provide non-specific generalization. But if you think in discussing and comparing the UK and Jamaica we are only talking about Jamaican residence or if you think Lilliput = Jamaica, well I think you might be giving yourself too much credit in thinking you could follow an argument.

As to me seeking employment in a farrin country,,,YES...at times at I had job, other others I had no job.

And those others times you just got up one day and flew to those countries without first knowing about some jobs on offer?

I have been ordinarily resident in 5 countries and worked in 5. I have done many permutations, so dont even go there.

Don't go where? Because based off what you say below it seems I should go there. You've said you were only qualified to vote in 2, so why ream off 6?

Tourists visas are not irrelevant, as it makes it difficult to scout out opportunities.

Tourist visas weren't imposed on Jamaicans from Britain until 2003. By then the internet had long been around and as I said, up until then at least you could still get at least one British paper in some places in Jamaica. I'm sure even if tourist visas were not imposed people would have the perception that it was difficult to scout out opportunities. I know someone who prior to the imposition of the tourist visas went to Britain as a tourist and then ended up as a student in a very minor institution (for which he could have easily applied for back in Jamaica without having gone to the UK first) but still found it super difficult to get a proper job, so he just keep doing more courses. Everybody in that family thought the person was wasting time in the UK because the person basically had to lounge off of his relatives in Britain who were getting quite miffed about it. Eventually the guy had to come back to Jamaica. He could have saved a lot of time and money had he done otherwise.

People can afford tickets and still need jobs, as loved ones can pay it on their behalf as an INVESTMENT in the job search... a one off.

Good point.

I was only qualifed to vote in 2 of those countries...was not in the UK long enuff,.....leaves only Jamaica and Switz, in local elections.

So you haven't voted in general elections then in the only other country where you could really do so. So you can't be arguing off experience of it even though you apparently tried to give that impression. The Switzerland example is good though and brings me back to the topic of reciprocity: why not change the law, if it must be changed, to one where reciprocal rights are grants? You as a Jamaican got to vote in Switzerland (only in local elections though), so why not extend the same right to Swiss who may come here? Give them the right to vote in municipal elections/local elections. After all since Switzerland extends the right to us, it would only be fair to extend the right to their citizens in the same capacity and I'm sure any Swiss who were resident in Jamaica would at least have the same concerns locally (parochial roads and so forth) that any other person would have?

Using a reciprocity law would also allow for the eventuality that Jamaicans lose those rights in other countries (say in New Zealand or Switzerland for example) as by its very nature, once those countries disenfranchised Jamaicans then their citizens would no longer be enfranchised here.

You do not need permanent residency to be ordinarily resident for one year. temp work permits, student visas, and temporary resident permits can make you cross that time hump.

Right! I'd forgotten about the student bit (had a cousin who did so but she eventually get permanent residency and citizenship in the UK). Your completely right on that point.

Do you have Any experience in all this, or yuh just talking out yuh derriere?

I have family from all over (UK, Canada, USA, Italy, Cuba, Nigeria, Australia) who have experienced it and I know what they went through. One was even in Australia for a good enough while to vote.

Hw many countries yuh have lived in for more than 1 year (not military)?

Two. Neither in the Commonwealth.

[Willi]

People not ignoring here..

Yuh framing like yuh think seh we born big suh.

Yuh caan tell mi nutten bout Inglan! LoL