Commonwealth electoral provision is an Ass & a Shackle..

[Skeng DX]

Mozambique was never a colony, but they have recently joined the Cwealth. Do you think a Mozambican, ordinarily resident in Jam for 1 year, should be qualified to become PM?

I say allow all duals or exclude all to sit in parliament.

yuh nuh see mi initial response


ie the law should be updated etc....

[Skeng DX]

Beeef??

Mine is poke or chicken yuh have.

How yuh manage post correctly now, den?

My work here is done on that account. LoL

Yes, I know about bases etc, but is still farrin territory.

There was talk of changing the rules to allow Arnold "Dat" Scwharzenegger to run for Prez.

BTW, lighten up. I enjoy your "impartial" posts. really. Yuh add suppen suppen to di Forum.

that all it is

will never happen anytime soon.............maybe when the Hispanics over take the Anglo Saxons

but not in the short to medium term

[Willi]

Dat can wuk.

[Gamma]

BUT how the jamaican going to vote in the UK as a commonwelath citizen if him cya'an get a visa fi guh UK WHEN the converse is that a UK citizen does not need a visa to go to jamaica to be eligible to hold office..

[ReggaeMike]

Mozambique was never a colony, but they have recently joined the Cwealth. Do you think a Mozambican, ordinarily resident in Jam for 1 year, should be qualified to become PM?

I say allow all duals or exclude all to sit in parliament.

Since it looks like my post was too long and you didn't read it, I'll post the most relevant section to your question (for which I already provided an answer if you looked) from the very end of my post:

At most I could see an argument for tweaking the law to allow reciprocity so that rights granted to Jamaicans in other countries would be reciprocated on nationals of those countries, but to allow all or none in terms of dual citizenship is the simpleton way out.

Also why is Mozambique brought up as this example of a country whose persons it is implied are somehow not right to be in Parliament? I really don't understand because Mozambique is an African country and this implicit denigration of African countries is puzzling to say the least. What? Is it that because they are a black African country that they must automatically be full of citizens up to no good? Or is it that we don't value the crap they went through alongside the Commonwealth (particularly other members of the Commonwealth in Africa, South Asia and the Caribbean) in ostracizing and isolating South Africa during its apartheid era?

Let's put it this way who do you think is more likely to have a real interest in Jamaica:

(a) the Jamaican who left Jamaican, went to the United States and despite swearing the Oath of Allegiance (copied below) in order to get US citizenship and in the process declaring that they renounce any and all allegiance to Jamaica, then in complete contravention of the spirit of the oath keeps his Jamaican citizenship, writes in the paper or says on TV that US citizenship/a passport is just a "convenience" (as I've seen written in the papers and hinted at by officials), then comes back to Jamaica and runs for parliament but keeps his citizenship in clear contravention of the Constitution?

(b) a Mozambican who leaves Mozambique to come to Jamaica (note he/she didn't go to the US to get American citizenship, he/she actually came to a country with a net negative migration rate of about 5 per 1,000) and has resided her for the length of time necessary to be eligible to vote (and thus stand for election) thus implying that not only did they come here (which any rhatid tourists can do but they aren't and can't be ordinarily resident for 1 year) but they've seeked out permanent residency in Jamaica and who then runs for election?


I dunno, but something tells me that anybody seeking Jamaican permanent residency probably has just little more interest in Jamaica than the person who just happened to be born here and who has acquired permanent residency for another country and refuses to give it up in order to be compliant with the law. The Mozambican didn't have a choice to be born in Mozambique, but after what I'm sure must have been considerable thought and fair amount of expense he/she actually chose to make Jamaica his/her permanent home. On the other hand the JAmerican had no choice in being born in Jamaica, but after similar thought and expense chose a foreign jurisdiction in which to live and particularly one which seems to have no qualms about not even allowing the JAmerican in question the chance to become President (or implicitly Vice President).


Note: Oath of Allegiance to the United States:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

In direct answer to your question though, I would probably vote for the Mozambican over say....Everald Warmington, Ian Hayles, Sharon Hay-Webster or Shahine Robinson any day of the week. The Mozambican at least under the scenario you described showed that he/she probably read, understood and respected the Constitution unlike some of those I mentioned above and at least he/she would be forthright in campaigning under that scenario since it would be known from very early that he/she is a Mozambican only with Jamaican permanent residency.

It's rather funny though and a bit disturbing how everyone else, save yourself, seems to have avoided my initial post and it's points on the matter.

[Skeng DX]

rahtid!!!

all this


my solution simple


if you want to lead any country you should be loyal to that country only, a great way to show this is to give up all other citizenship

Jamaica don't have a presidential system...therefore that change apply to all MP's


if you don't want to give it up.....find another way to serve.....but you cant lead my country....SORRY

[ReggaeMike]

BUT how the jamaican going to vote in the UK as a commonwelath citizen if him cya'an get a visa fi guh UK WHEN the converse is that a UK citizen does not need a visa to go to jamaica to be eligible to hold office..

Tourists cannot vote (let alone stand for election) in either Jamaica or the United Kingdom. Tourists are never granted a stay long enough to do so (usually it is 180 days out of every 365 days at the max, but I've heard of maximum cases involving about 8 months in some countries)

Tourists are not "ordinarily resident" in the place they are visiting.

Jamaicans who are permanent residents (and therefore don't need a visa) can all vote AND stand for election in the United Kingdom. Note, that you can only have Jamaican citizenship and end up in parliament in the UK.

Similarly Britons who are permanent residents of Jamaica (which they would need to be in order to have a place of residence and to be ordinarily resident under electoral law) can vote and stand for election in Jamaica.

[Gamma]

you miss my point completely ..... how does a jamaican get to be resident in the UK or put it this way ... is it more difficult for a jamaican to pick up himself and become a resident of the UK or for a UK resident to become a permanent resident in jamaica?

[Assasin]

where did I even say that?

Mo it is simple we have made mistakes in the past and this shouldn't even have to reach the courts. Our policy makers if they genuinely had this at heart would have found a solution for this problem since both parties guilty and it affect the way people served the country. And especially after the first court ruling everybody knew what was expected so there should have been no bob and weave.

[Willi]

Shhhh

[Willi]

African???

Man ah wha duh yuh??

Loook how many ex-colonial ENGLISH speaking African countries out deh and I have no problem wid dem. Yuh hear mi seh anything bout Nigeria, RSA, Ghana, Sierra Leaone, Kenya,Tanzania, etc?

Mozambique is a former PORTUGUESE colony and dem fuss language is NOT english and they dont have an anglicized culture in any way...different govt structure and legal structure, etc.

Is it not clear now WHY I bring them up? If Costa Rica guh jine di CWealth, it would be the SAME argument.

Follow argument and leggo offa di hangups.

[ReggaeMike]

you miss my point completely ..... how does a jamaican get to be resident in the UK or put it this way ... is it more difficult for a jamaican to pick up himself and become a resident of the UK or for a UK resident to become a permanent resident in jamaica?

I didn't miss your point, but your point was way off and Willi seems to have not realized that.

Having a tourist visa and becoming a permanent resident are entirely unrelated. For the first you just need to demonstrate that you wish to visit the country and that you don't intend to commit a crime in the process (like smuggle drugs). For the second you need to get a job.

As tourists are NOT ALLOWED TO WORK then bringing up visas is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of elections because for elections you need to have permanent residency and for permanent residency you need to be able to work.......

[ReggaeMike]

As for the ease or difficulty of getting Jamaican permanent residency...well I remember being in the Ministry of Labour a few months back and some poor sap was having trouble with bureaucracy in just renewing his work permit so I can only imagine the bureaucracy isn't any better when it comes to permanent residency. Anyway here is an outline of the procedure by someone who actually had to go through the process:

http://transitionsunshine.info/2009/...cy-in-jamaica/

The Following article is written by: An American Retiree in Jamaica By John Casey
Published Mar 31, 2009
Jamaicans.com
Permanent residency can be granted for retired people and those who have been employed in Jamaica for at least five years. The process takes three years to complete, but it took five years for me. This department of immigrations is not the most efficient. My extra two years was a result of lost paperwork and lack of investigation by the clerks.
Each year you are required to visit the Kingston immigrations office where they will extend your temporary residency for another year. At the same time you can purchase a multi entry visa. A visa is a must if you plan on leaving the island during the coming year. The visa and subsequent renewals require two trips to Kingston. The first visit is to apply for the visa or renewal. This process takes one week and proves that you are who you say you are. The fee for each visa is JA $2,000. I found obtaining the visa quite helpful as I travel two to three times a year for vacations and shopping trips.
Here is a list of the required “documents and particulars” to become a permanent resident:
1) Valid National passport;
2) Evidence of financial status and means of support – for example, particulars on pension, bank account, property owned and business investments;
3) Birth certificate;
4) Marital status – marriage certificate – particulars of spouse, children, and other dependents;
5) Medical certificate – certificate of good health;
6) Police certificate from the state which you are migrating;
7) Two (2) passport size photos;
8) Reasons for seeking permanent residence in Jamaica;
9) Letters of references from two reputable citizens of Jamaica.
Permanent residency is usually granted to the following categories of persons:
A) Wives of Jamaican nationals without meeting any residency requirements;
B) Adults and minors who have claim to Jamaican nationality without meeting any residency requirements;
C) Retired persons who have resided in Jamaica for at least three years;
D) Persons employed in Jamaica after completing a period of residency of at least five years;
E) Minors who have no claim to Jamaican nationality who have resided in the island for a period of 2-4 years.
The sooner these documents and particulars are presented to immigrations, the sooner they can begin their investigation. The most difficult report for me to obtain was from the Massachusetts state police. It was something that could not be done in person but only by mail or through the internet. Even so, my initial request was lost.
Most of the other required information was much easier to produce. Finding two reputable people to write a letter of reference is not easy for someone new to the island. I was able to get these letters from prominent people in my neighborhood. One area immigrations is very meticulous about is with the financial aspect. They want to be assured that you will have ample funds for as long as you live and that your survivors will be taken care of. Proving lifetime pension benefits requires statements from their source and not just check stubs.
Towards the end of the three year process, the police conduct interviews with you and your neighbors as part of their investigation into your conduct while living in Jamaica. Besides the personal questions, they look around your home to see what kind of lifestyle you are living. For this reason, and perhaps others, there isn’t any notice given before the interview.
I think the best advice I can offer you once the permanent residency process has been started is to turn in as quickly as possible all the information they require and to keep on top of them. Calls to immigrations should be made a few times during the year so you can check on the progress of their investigation. I failed to do that in the beginning and, as a result, it took nearly two additional years for them to complete their investigation. It is better for them to know you well than not at all. Later…

[Gamma]

so we are clear what do you think my point is?

[Willi]

And a short term expat work permit? Is that any desire for PERMANENT residency?