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  • Education: Forward With Patois!

    Several of us on this forum have, for years, criticized the suggestion that patois be taught in Jamaican schools as the primary language, with English imparted in the context of a second language. In fact, just a couple of days ago poster Willi offered (in my view) an excellent input regarding this matter. Others, like HL and Reggaedoc, have added sensible voices, providing reasons why patois cannot be a logical first choice for our developing country! However, as usual, the “grassroots” throng of voices has saturated such threads with all kinds of excuses! (And in case you’re wondering about my use of subject-verb agreement in the preceding sentence, “throng” is the subject here, and not “grassroots”!)

    My question is this: In their (hard-for-me-to-understand) efforts at promoting the Jamaican dialect over Standard English as the main focus of language instruction in Jamaican schools, are these “patois-first” proponents among the most dangerous enemies of Jamaica’s contribution to our increasingly globalized world? This is not a joke question!

    (By the way, I make numerous errors in my posts, and this is partly because I don’t spend much time in reading my comments before posting. However, that is another matter.)

    For full article below: The Sunday Gleaner, October 16, 2011.
    Link: http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=32605

    Severe stutter mars Jamaican's asylum case in US

    Published: Sunday October 16, 2011 | 3:08 pm

    Derrick Cotterel was a farm worker who came to the United States from Jamaica, picking citrus in Florida and apples in West Virginia for 10 years, before a pay dispute with a landscaping employer led to his arrest last year on robbery charges.

    Given his long-expired visa, the arrest landed Cotterel in immigration custody in York, Pa. But judges there struggled for nearly a year to understand his request for political asylum.

    Cotterel, 42, speaks a Jamaican patois, or Creole, that might alone be difficult for Americans to grasp. But his speech is further compromised by a severe stutter that makes him nearly impossible to understand.

    Nor can he read or write. So many of his thoughts remain trapped inside of him.

    "Me can, me can, me can ... " Cotterel once stammered to an immigration judge charged with deciding his case. "I said me can't say what (indiscernible). Please, sir, I say I can't tell you what I want to tell you about."

    Unlike criminal defendants, immigration detainees like Cotterel have no right to free counsel. So Cotterel sat in the York County Prison, where about 700 detained immigrants are housed with 1,700 convicted or suspected criminals, from July 2010 until May while frustrated judges continued his bail and asylum hearings.

    One judge tried to toss him only yes-or-no questions about his political asylum claim, and asked Cotterel to raise his left or right hand, depending on his response.

    On May 18, Judge Andrew Arthur tried another tack. He asked two fellow inmates from Jamaica to translate. That worked to a point, though Arthur was not always sure whose answer was being relayed to him.

    One inmate-translator told the judge that police had failed to investigate the killing of Cotterel's brother "because of the political activity."

    "Did he say that or did you say that?" Arthur asked.

    York immigration lawyer Craig R. Shagin is frequently asked to take cases pro bono, but can only take a few, and chooses those he thinks have merit. He recently agreed to help Cotterel — who lost his asylum bid — with his appeal. He believes his client could be killed if he returns to Jamaica.

  • #2
    For that TRANSLATORS should be called in. Shame on the US Justice System. Case in point - In the UK - sm years ago, A Jamaican was being deported and had trouble explaining to the court why he was in the UK. A Jamaican student studying at Oxford was asked to do the translation for the court (paid a measly sum) and did so. Very interesting as I had a first-hand account of the incident. The case is well-documented in Law as well as in the linguistic fraternity.

    So while not taking any positions in your debate, just wanted to point out that the argument for Standard English as the ONLY language for us (or main) can easily be circumlocuted.

    I have seen the informality of language, the use of email, popular social media and texting creep into what should be a professional setting, particularly in the younger generation. There is more than apt room for appropriate language for the appropriate scenarios and audience.

    At times, however, there is nothing as expressive as the Jamaican vernacular. Yu si mi? Cho!

    No watch no face!

    Comment


    • #3
      That would not have happen in NYC, as all languages are spoken here, and they would have gotten him a translator.

      Comment


      • #4
        historian, for the first time I am going to accuse you of being disingenuous. no one has said to replace english with patois or to use patois to teach other subjects as you seem be suggesting. there are many of my posts on here stating that time and again but, for whatever reason that is overlooked

        in fact i call for it to be standardised and taught, whether as a primary or secondary language (at the moment spanish is officially the second language in ja) doesn't really matter to me.

        my father used to sing "brittania rules the waves" and "god bless the queen" happily those songs are foreign to me ... i know our national anthem and our national pledge.........

        Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. Thomas Paine

        Comment


        • #5
          Well, wasn't there a case in Calif. (or some such state) years ago, where a translator was used/
          Life is a system of half-truths and lies, opportunistic, convenient evasion.”
          - Langston Hughes

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Historian View Post
            Several of us on this forum have, for years, criticized the suggestion that patois be taught in Jamaican schools as the primary language, with English imparted in the context of a second language. In fact, just a couple of days ago poster Willi offered (in my view) an excellent input regarding this matter. Others, like HL and Reggaedoc, have added sensible voices, providing reasons why patois cannot be a logical first choice for our developing country! However, as usual, the “grassroots” throng of voices has saturated such threads with all kinds of excuses! (And in case you’re wondering about my use of subject-verb agreement in the preceding sentence, “throng” is the subject here, and not “grassroots”!)

            My question is this: In their (hard-for-me-to-understand) efforts at promoting the Jamaican dialect over Standard English as the main focus of language instruction in Jamaican schools, are these “patois-first” proponents among the most dangerous enemies of Jamaica’s contribution to our increasingly globalized world? This is not a joke question!

            (By the way, I make numerous errors in my posts, and this is partly because I don’t spend much time in reading my comments before posting. However, that is another matter.)

            For full article below: The Sunday Gleaner, October 16, 2011.
            Link: http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=32605

            Severe stutter mars Jamaican's asylum case in US

            Published: Sunday October 16, 2011 | 3:08 pm

            Derrick Cotterel was a farm worker who came to the United States from Jamaica, picking citrus in Florida and apples in West Virginia for 10 years, before a pay dispute with a landscaping employer led to his arrest last year on robbery charges.

            Given his long-expired visa, the arrest landed Cotterel in immigration custody in York, Pa. But judges there struggled for nearly a year to understand his request for political asylum.

            Cotterel, 42, speaks a Jamaican patois, or Creole, that might alone be difficult for Americans to grasp. But his speech is further compromised by a severe stutter that makes him nearly impossible to understand.

            Nor can he read or write. So many of his thoughts remain trapped inside of him.

            "Me can, me can, me can ... " Cotterel once stammered to an immigration judge charged with deciding his case. "I said me can't say what (indiscernible). Please, sir, I say I can't tell you what I want to tell you about."

            Unlike criminal defendants, immigration detainees like Cotterel have no right to free counsel. So Cotterel sat in the York County Prison, where about 700 detained immigrants are housed with 1,700 convicted or suspected criminals, from July 2010 until May while frustrated judges continued his bail and asylum hearings.

            One judge tried to toss him only yes-or-no questions about his political asylum claim, and asked Cotterel to raise his left or right hand, depending on his response.

            On May 18, Judge Andrew Arthur tried another tack. He asked two fellow inmates from Jamaica to translate. That worked to a point, though Arthur was not always sure whose answer was being relayed to him.

            One inmate-translator told the judge that police had failed to investigate the killing of Cotterel's brother "because of the political activity."

            "Did he say that or did you say that?" Arthur asked.

            York immigration lawyer Craig R. Shagin is frequently asked to take cases pro bono, but can only take a few, and chooses those he thinks have merit. He recently agreed to help Cotterel — who lost his asylum bid — with his appeal. He believes his client could be killed if he returns to Jamaica.

            The irony is - you say forward with Patois. Well in this case, Patois never helped him.
            Life is a system of half-truths and lies, opportunistic, convenient evasion.”
            - Langston Hughes

            Comment


            • #7
              Indeed they are 'Storian. Jamaica's main threat is from her enemies within. This includes those who would have the likes of a Kartel being a guest lecturer at what claims to be a prestigious tertiary institution. No one even called for the resignation of the head of the department that invited him. Quite amazing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Indeed that has been the view of many on here, a recognition that English is not the primary language of the Jamaican masses and approach its teaching as such.

                I cannot think of anyone currently on this forum who has held the view that English be replaced with patois.
                "‎It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men" - Frederick Douglass

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Islandman View Post
                  Indeed that has been the view of many on here, a recognition that English is not the primary language of the Jamaican masses and approach its teaching as such.

                  I cannot think of anyone currently on this forum who has held the view that English be replaced with patois.
                  That is true whether we like it or not. The sooner we accept that, and not be embarrassed about it, then we can move on.


                  BLACK LIVES MATTER

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Everybody knows that...that is not the point...the point is we need to master English or we are f@cked...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mosiah View Post
                      That is true whether we like it or not. The sooner we accept that, and not be embarrassed about it, then we can move on.
                      I'm sorry ... how did we learn when we went to school? How many people can actually read and write patios? I see it as simply adding another hurdle. Using it in literature and drama is sufficient .... anything else is a waste.
                      "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        As have many South Africans who can speak 5 other languages!

                        So, who says we should not master English?!?!?!?!?!?!!!???!?!!??!?!?

                        And everybody don't know dat Patois is our first language. Aks 'Istorian!


                        BLACK LIVES MATTER

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How does teaching chemistry in patois help us to master English?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Lazie View Post
                            I'm sorry ... how did we learn when we went to school?
                            Did we learn English as a country? Really? Yuh see di exam results?!?! Yuh lissen how wi talk di language, haltingly like wi a eediat?!?! A pronunce every letter like wi nuh ha nuh sense?!???!?


                            BLACK LIVES MATTER

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That seems to be your theory. Please hexpound on dis, sar!


                              BLACK LIVES MATTER

                              Comment

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