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Ska Is Not Jazz!!

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  • Ska Is Not Jazz!!

    Jazz is way more influential than ska, and I may look at this in a separate thread on another occasion. But the fact is that musicians of a certain calibre invariably veer towards jazz, a genre which provides the most scope for creativity and self-expression. In other words, and this is true of every country including Jamaica, after reaching a certain level of development, musicians inevitably turn to jazz.

    Now to my view that it is disingenious to suggest that jazz and ska are on the same level.

    Like poster X, I have always enjoyed ska, Jamaica’s first popular music genre (mento, which preceded ska, is folk music). Like poster X as well, I too think that Don Drummond was among the most gifted and creative musicians to emerge from Jamaica.

    In terms of a timeline, ska emerged from the ghettoes of west Kingston around 1961 or 1962, and with its fast paced beat, quickly symbolized (in my opinion) the optimism of Jamaica as it approached independence and nationhood.

    Nevertheless, although I love ska very much, I cannot share the misguided view that ska and jazz are on the same level. They are most definitely not, and any attempt to classify ska in the same mold as jazz will ultimately be an erroneous exercise.

    The fact is that ska, with its confinement to a basic 4/4 rhythmic structure, its emphasis on the usual three-note chord construction (aside from maybe the occasional flattened seventh note), and its tendency to favor three or four-chord progressions makes it a very, very simple genre when compared to the jazz of that era (the late 1950s and early 1960s) and the jazz of today.

    Make no mistake about it, ska’s strength when it appeared is that it was a new, infectious, groundbreaking rhythm. The lyrics, which were often childish, did not play the important role that reggae came to play. As far as the music is concerned, there was little that was technically challenging about ska, as it was simply a strong, danceable music. In fact, as far as scope for creativity is concerned, any drummer or bass player (who provide the foundation of any rhythm) will attest that reggae offers much more freedom for melodic and rhythmic excursions and invention when compared with ska.

    On the other hand, the jazz of the time, be-bop, cool, and the other variations, tended to involve much, much more complex harmonies, which is a hallmark of jazz musicians. Also, in jazz, there was/is much greater rhythmic variations (including complex polyrhythm) and melodic excursions into previously unheralded areas, which in turn broke new grounds. In fact, ska musicians like Roland Alphonso, Johnny Moore and Tommy McCook listened carefully to and learnt from what was happening in the jazz from North America.

    The harmony arrangements of jazz showed a tendency to move away from regular triads (three-note chords) as jazz players showed a distinct preference for additional notes like major sevenths, 9th, 11th and 13th chords along with, sometimes, rapidly shifting key centers and deceptive resolutions.

    So, while ska musicians employed a more simple harmonic structure to their arrangements (for example, triads and simple, basic chord progressions), their jazz contemporaries were increasingly experimenting with four-note chords (major-seventh chords in place of major chords, chord extensions, chord alterations, and chord substitutions).

    In the case of jazz also, the be-bop and other musicians often went to extremes in creating complex rhythms. Check the work of early 1950s and early sixties jazz musicians like Charlie “Bird” Parker, John Coltrane, Art Blakey, Miles Davis, Dave Brubeck, Philly Joe Jones, etc. etc.

  • #2
    Who said Ska was Jazz ? The influence that you speak of is where we are left to debate ?

    Influence in terms of popular culture ! If that is the case as it now stands Ska is carrying Jazz .See my source in the above NY times article where musicians are recrutied to play in Ska bands as for range , while you state that Jazz is played with major sevenths, 9th, 11th and 13th chords.Ska by some has more versatility because of its simple structure.

    Again see above NY times article where players of instruements can add range to any composition.That said it does not excuse any instruementalist from individually hitting those 7ths , 9ths , 11ths and 13ths chords does it ?

    Thanks for acknowledging the founding fathers Tommy, Ronald and Don but they themselves saw their music as on par with Jazz in terms of arragngements.Don D himself was quoted as saying after listening to a couple trombonist , that only certian men he rated in his class.

    Come better than that , its not Jazz we know that , its a different Genre we know that , its popular present day instruemental influnce is not on par with SKA we now know that !

    Ska a carry di swing.
    Last edited by Sir X; May 4, 2011, 11:44 AM.
    THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

    "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


    "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

    Comment


    • #3
      BTW in the future come with references , This opiniated thing will get us no where.I have continually provided video from Argentinia , Europe to the USA to back up my claim of popular influence and articles.

      Thank you.
      THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

      "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


      "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

      Comment


      • #4
        I am going to put one mis truth about SKA and Jazz to the sword and I hope that those who call themselves historians defend our founding musicains and stop discrediting them..

        Ska was originated out of Jazz ,it was in its foundation an instrumental music then blossomed into oral arrangements the skattalities have testified to that ! In that they taught musicains from how to sing over ska.

        All of the ska musicians played in Big Bands at the time in Jamaica and travelled the carribbean Jazz scene .Eric Deans All stars was the band at the time.Don drummond himself tried to form a 4 or 3 man trombone band.Some even played back up for Jazz singers Sara Vaughn rated Don drummond as one of the top 5 musicians in the world, so did another Jazz great forgot his name.

        If these greats were raised in such an enviroment , which tone , note or range they could not hit in a ska tune as instruementalist ?

        Some people wicked sah !
        THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

        "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


        "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

        Comment


        • #5
          where are your references?

          Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. Thomas Paine

          Comment


          • #6
            Ohh Gamma yuh nuh tired a dem , must I again ? How some try to fool us is saying genre ? well let me state ryhtmic pace has nothing to do with hitting a note , tone or range in instruementals.

            Jazz some would say is slower , so what about Big band music its faster ? Jazz some would say has more of a soloist composition , Ska has that composition if it chooses to be !What about the instruemental side of Blues ?

            Where they all meet is they can hit any range or tone or chord.
            Last edited by Sir X; May 4, 2011, 01:22 PM.
            THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

            "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


            "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

            Comment


            • #7
              What Else Can I Say?

              Originally posted by X View Post
              BTW in the future come with references , This opiniated thing will get us no where.I have continually provided video from Argentinia , Europe to the USA to back up my claim of popular influence and articles.
              Here’s a YouTube video that I’m dedicating to those who are interested in what I’m talking about when I refer to highly developed technique, such as jazz demands:
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvMrBYlwHqU

              It’s the great African-American solo guitarist Stanley Jordan with a live version of “Somewhere Over the Rainbow.” Note that there is only ONE instrument being played, and this Jordan’s guitar.

              Now to this thread: I really won’t belabor the point. I also don’t feel like providing references because I assume that when an individual listens to music, that person actually hears what is going on inside the music. I also assume that people are aware of the works of the great jazz players of yesterday and today.

              The fact is that musicians who have reached a high level of competency quite often veer towards jazz, because that genre, more than any other that exists, affords the musician the realm in which to explore and create. We see this in Jamaica, and throughout the Caribbean, the Americas, Europe, Africa and Asia!

              In fact, no other form of music provides as wide a platform for creativity, technique and personal expression like jazz does.

              Finally, with reference to my discussion about melody, harmony and rhythms, it is not just any musician who can play altered and extended chords, etc. such as I’ve highlighted in my thread starter, or play in odd-time signatures, etc. We are talking about musical technique that has to be developed to a very high level, along with the necessary knowledge and taste.

              Unlike jazz and classical genres, ska places NO heavy demands whatsoever on the musician!! That is my central point!

              Comment


              • #8
                Well Boss you are entitled to your opinion ,High level of competency Veers towards Jazz and Jazz places a heavier demand on the individual... wow.

                Your opinion and its just that.The only fact you conviently leave out is the popularity of SKA and I will only stick to the purist form of SKA , The instruemental.

                So to follow your Logic , Don, Tommy and Roland never reached such competency ?

                Mr Skavoovie ...Inez

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETUdK3Ust8M


                The Chief Musician & Don D ...going Solo ...!

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPT5rX_2Pao



                NY Jazz ensemble hitting the 4/4 and 5/4 ..in DUB !

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEXmPAnkKXw


                Ska isnt limited in its purist form , Deal with that !

                Of course Don D confuscious covered from Argentinia to Europe

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxk-P...eature=related


                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9NSQ...eature=related
                Last edited by Sir X; May 4, 2011, 03:43 PM.
                THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Still waiting for the info on where I can find the mecca of JAZZ seeing that NY plays such a miniscule part.

                  Let me guess New Orleans ? You think they pump out records like NY and california..lol ..gimmie a break , and in terms of tourism you think they can stack up to NY ? in terms of entertainment ?

                  In NY its SKA SKA SKA in the Jazz clubs ..lol !
                  THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                  "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                  "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Anyway Historian lets move on agree to disagree ,got one for you

                    Man in the street made the U.K charts and a JBC radiomentary on Don D

                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWufkk1iAgs

                    and

                    http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/8998947

                    I have to respectfully boycott yuh book too many mistatements.
                    THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                    "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                    "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Please post some of these music nuh?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Need your opinion here, Jamaica or Cuba which country would be rated #1 in Music, Musicians & Dance?

                        Anyone can jump in also - Thanks

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Historian,

                          You must know this youth from Korea... I pasted this song just because he's playing the Ukelele... doing a cover of Jason Mraz ...

                          I am no musicologist but this yute is dyam good...

                          http://www.youtube.com/user/jwcfree?...13/E2OEuyF_2u8

                          Younger Sungha doing No woman no cry... like Jordan his guitar sounds like two people playing

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HuMRJtFX8o
                          Peter R

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Glad you say opinion , # 1 Jamaica of course , which other country can run neck and neck with the USA in terms of popular musical and dance culture ?

                            I dont think Cuba has even begun to scratch the surface.
                            THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                            "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                            "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Youtube Skattalites , Don Drummond , Ronald alphonso and Tommy McCook.

                              Tommy McCook and Roland especially in the Rock Steady and Dub Music scene, you will be amazed how they blew those horns over those rhythms , special mention of lyn tait on guitars.

                              He is a trini that came to Jamaica at the time of Ska, Rocksteady and murdered it, he said he is a ska/reggae guitarist.No calypso...lol
                              THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                              "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                              "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                              Comment

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