Are Jamaicans wizing up to the Tyranny of the Roti-Eaters??

[ReggaeMike]

Yet niche marketing will fail without increased productivity.......so little point engaging in such activity when failure would be a certainty. As my teachers used to quote: "Failure to prepare is preparation for failure". So going after niche markets when one cannot exploit them is about as farsighted as Don Quixote's charge of the windmills.

[Willi]

I think its about absolute population. Jamaica is more than 50-60% of the Anglo Carib base. Plus the diaspora is largely said to be equal to the local population.

1m in the US, same in the UK and about 300K in Canada and about the same in the rest of the world. Local plus diaspora is equal to about 5m plus with a vested interest in the welfare of the Island nation.

[Willi]

With niche products we already have the needed productivity.

What we need is vision, ambition and drive.

We can sell all the coffee, pepper jam, ugli fruit, etc that we can produce at the moment, if we organize ourselves properly.

[Don1]

=ReggaeMike;267159]But wait, Guv'ment sell off Flat Bridge to you already?

Alright, I'll start the bidding at J$100,000.

Sold!!

Now yuh haffi guh fine di $10B fi fix it fi mek it wuk like it should an tap wash whey people

Nope, but it is probably the only place to get safe products that haven't been really been subsidized. As I contended before, there is little point in taking a position in opposition to claimed subsidies only to turn around and buy truly subsidized (and at times heavily subsidized) goods from elsewhere. If Jamaica is going to buy subsidized goods from it's WTO partners then there is little point in complaining about phantom Trini subsidies.

1. The TT subsidies are real... as PeterR has proved... so let's put that argument to rest. The subsidies amount to unfair trading within our "Free Trade Block" which affects Jamaican competitiveness.

Along with the adverse trade terms... The core issue of our non-competitive posture should be simultaneously addressed by good policy such as massively upgrading education & training.

They are not mutually exclusive issues.

2. Since we don't compete in the EU marketplace with EU-subsidized products... these subsidies are a big plus for Jamaica... it means possibly cheaper imports...with no downside of unfair competition in the EU marketplace

Plus further trade engagement with the EU will encourage more engagement with development assistance & investments & technology transfers from that source

A much better option than TT/Caricom presents...although that EU possibility is a secondary option to the US...where our physical closeness, cultural ties & large diaspora are keys to success in trading.

A no-brainer.

[Don1]

Hang on. Is this a case of misinterpretation again. I'm sure you asked me what Grace's motto was.

Plus what the Grace CEO says that Grace's mission is now, has little bearing on how Grace became a successful conglomerate. Was it's mission always to meet the unmet needs of Caribbean people wherever they may be? Even when they were just starting out with soup? Again, note that soup is a product that can be consumed by everybody, not just Jamaicans on the island or in the diaspora. It is probably no coincidence that the unmet needs of Caribbean people will probably just happen to coincide with the unmet needs of people in general and that is not niche marketing.

RMike... we know Grace well. Carlton Alexander built that company into a powerhouse... Carlton Alexander's story springs from 189 Old Hope Road so that story is very familiar....but that was then in a protected, enclosed market. This is a new, globalized market calling for new strategies.

Douglas Orane has built on that Alexander legacy and sees the current and future success of Grace in a HUGELY COMPETITIVE world through "satisfying the unmet needs of Caribbean people wherever they are"... it's in the mission statement and values of Jamaica's most successful conglomerate showing the way forward

[Don1]

Let's just say we have a fundamental disagreement on the trade & development strategies Jamaica need to follow.

No worries kingman..

respek

[Don1]

I think its about absolute population. Jamaica is more than 50-60% of the Anglo Carib base. Plus the diaspora is largely said to be equal to the local population.

1m in the US, same in the UK and about 300K in Canada and about the same in the rest of the world. Local plus diaspora is equal to about 5m plus with a vested interest in the welfare of the Island nation.

There are 1m Jamaican's in the tri-state region alone... much more if you consider the 2nd generation folk

Their annual income in this region alone is probably about $US40Billion+

[Willi]

was being conservative for the sake of argument.

[Don1]

With niche products we already have the needed productivity.

What we need is vision, ambition and drive.

We can sell all the coffee, pepper jam, ugli fruit, etc that we can produce at the moment, if we organize ourselves properly.

true dat... wi juss haffi find big enuff niches... diaspora mi seh

[Don1]

=ReggaeMike;267206]Please cite the relative wealth of all the countries in Caricom in comparison to Jamaica and then tell us how trading with countries that are indisputably richer than Jamaica will not make Jamaica better off. If so then trading with America won't make us better off either and Jamaica should focus it's trade on Haiti, Liberia and Somalia.

I give you 3 reasons why the Caricom strategy is sub optimal:

1. The market is tiny with no economies of scale to take advantage of

2. There is a bias against Jamaica...AKA small island mentality

3. We do not have any significant comparative advantages in those markets

You have yet to cite Caricom's income as a basis for comparison and also seem to exclude the wider Caricom diaspora in this analysis.

Plus the US government's own census counts the Jamaican diaspora in the US as being about 900,000-1 million. Given that people are free to declare what their ancestry is the fact that 1 million chose to put Jamaica before anything else indicates that for the wider diaspora the link to Jamaica is not strong enough to warrant even being called Jamaican-American officially (which might be due to stronger links with other countries of their ancestors such as the US itself, China, Britain, or elsewhere).

In any event this "huge" diaspora is in fact just as tiny, if not more tiny than the Caricom market.

Tiny is relative....so is Big

The income of Jamaicans in the US is several times Jamaica's GDP... even using the Atlas method of adjustment..LOL!

USA per capita income is about $45K. If they're 1m Jamaicans here...that's a US$45B market... 4X Jamaica's GDP

Tiny for the USA...significant for Jamaica

Plus as I've been saying throughout, Jamaica will not get wealthy by ignoring markets...any markets. China never did. They sold to insignificant and debt ridden Jamaica because they know that money is money no matter who owns it. There is no sound, logical reason why Jamaica (once productivity is increased) cannot exploit the Caricom market, the US market, the EU market, the diaspora market, a wider Commonwealth market, the Asian markets and various other markets to it's benefit.

Theoretically possible to exploit all markets...but impossible in the short or medium term.

There's a need to implement visionary reform especially in education to raise productivity.... until we get there we need a niche marketing strategy.

You are talking about one of Grace Kennedy's current strategies (all successful companies have multiple, concurrent strategies). How did Grace start out? What foods did Grace make and were the most popular not general-purpose foods that anybody could have?

How Grace started out is interesting historically but irrelevant to the current discussion....today's environment is far different than yesterday's.

Grace has determined that the way forward is to exploit their comparative advantage in brand recognition and product affinity with the Caribbean (read Jamaican) diaspora... they have executed that strategy successfully...and don't try to tackle all markets... they don't need to.... a "niche market' in the US may be a $5B opportunity

That diaspora/niche strategy is clearly explained in the company's mission statement.

But you said we have no leverage with the US.

Plus given what the US has on us (debt) it is far more likely that they will wring concessions out of us.

There's only one way to find out...talk to Babylon

If the US in the end acquiesced to a Chinese company running container terminals on both ends of the Canal I don't see why they would suddenly find a Chinese company running the KCT anything to get too excited over. Note that even now with the prospect of Chinese interest in the port, not one news item about it has made headlines in the US.

Headlines?? LOL! Yuh tink Joe di Plumma bizniz wid dem ting deh?

Dem preffa look pon Dancing wid di Stars ar some such fart..

But how does that square with ignoring Caricom and focusing mainly on a diaspora market? That's like only using the wrench in the toolbox and considering it to be "all the tools".

Let's agree to disagree on that

[ReggaeMike]

Sold!!

Now yuh haffi guh fine di $10B fi fix it fi mek it wuk like it should an tap wash whey people

Fix what? I'm going to market it as an adventure attraction for thrill seekers.

1. The TT subsidies are real... as PeterR has proved... so let's put that argument to rest. The subsidies amount to unfair trading within our "Free Trade Block" which affects Jamaican competitiveness.

Could you link me to where PeterR proved it? And I hope it is not just PeterR stating the price at the pump in Trinidad because we all know that is not proof of a subsidy.

[Don1]

=ReggaeMike;267377]Fix what? I'm going to market it as an adventure attraction for thrill seekers.

Wikkid concept... kayaking on the Rio Cobre.. Flat Lining on Flat Bridge

Could you link me to where PeterR proved it? And I hope it is not just PeterR stating the price at the pump in Trinidad because we all know that is not proof of a subsidy.

From the TT Guardian...

Home » News
Energy Minister:
No reduction in gas subsidy
Richard Lord
Published: 31 Aug 2010
Richard Lord

Energy Minister Carolyn Seepersad-Bachan says she does not expect any reduction in the gas subsidy or any hike in gas prices in next week’s national budget to be presented by Finance Minister Winston Dookeran.

Seepersad-Bachan said so in an interview yesterday. Asked if citizens can expected a reduction in the gas subsidy during the budget presentation, Seepersad-Bachan said she cannot say what Dookeran would announce, but she has recommended that there should be no reduction in the subsidy or increase in the price of gas until there was a viable alternative effectively in place.

She said she has always maintained that there was a need to establish a proper Compressed Natural Gas network in T&T, and only when that was done can the subsidy be reduced. Seepersad-Bachan also said she did not expect any hike in the price of gas to be announced in the budget. She reiterated that while the previous Government had spoken about CNG as an alternative, nothing was done to seriously develop the industry over the past several years.

She said the Government was doing all it can to ensure that CNG was developed to ensure that there was an alternative so the need for gas would be reduced, and as a direct consequence, the subsidy will also come down . Former finance minister Karen Tesheira said last week that any move to reduce the $2 billion annual subsidy would spell disaster for the manufacturing and other sectors.

[ReggaeMike]

RMike... we know Grace well. Carlton Alexander built that company into a powerhouse... Carlton Alexander's story springs from 189 Old Hope Road so that story is very familiar....but that was then in a protected, enclosed market. This is a new, globalized market calling for new strategies.

Again the truth is more nuanced.

Grace was founded in the 1920s at which time there was in fact a globalized market (or rather the remnants of one that existed before World War I and which was in the process of being rebuilt). The Great Depression and World War II destroyed that market, however at the time Jamaica was part of a mostly free trade bloc (the empire) which covered 20% of the planet. Grace then continued through WWII and the 1960s and 1970s when Carifta came about and allowed for increased Jamaican trade with the rest of the Anglophone Caribbean following the semi-protectionist period of the 1940s-1970s. Note that when Jamaica was highly productive it benefited from Carifta to the point that it was one of the first to sign on and accede to Caricom in 1973 (when Jamaican productivity had not yet started to slide into the abyss) even though it was among the second batch of countries of accede to Carifta (three years after Carifta's founding) or rather the third batch having signed up in August 1968 (along with Montserrat) after the re-signing by the original 4 in May 1968 and then the second batch in July 1968. By the time Belize signed on as the last country in 1971, Jamaica along with other members were already well advanced in planning Caricom due to the increased trade facilitated by Carifta (remember too that this was at a time when Jamaica was governed by the Bustamante-led JLP which certainly would have no compunctions about taking Jamaica out of Carifta if it didn't see any benefits as they had helped take Jamaica out of the federation). So Grace experienced growth through periods of protectionism and free-trade and if I'm not mistaken the business interests they acquired overseas occurred during the Carifta-Caricom period.

Catchy phrases and words like "new strategies" notwithstanding, the world in 1913 was in some ways far more globalized than it is now (for instance in many places passport controls were non-existent) and new strategies that involve burning bridges usually aren't very wise.

[ReggaeMike]

Cool, no worries donman (the real donman, not the fenke, fenke ones who wear women's clothing and wigs!).

[Don1]

The facts remains Rmike, and are untroubled by your offerings imho:

1. There is no particular benefit to Jamaica remaining in Caricom... nothing sourced there is unavailable elsewhere & Jamaica sells little into those small island markets

2. Jamaica should be unafraid of leaving Caricom if its national interests are enhanced by so doing. The concept of "burning bridges" you advance is null imho.
When TT found it in their interest to break their agreement to supply gas to Jamaica in favour of increasing supply to the US...they did not hesitate or have much if any concern about so called burnt bridges. Nations don't have friends...only interests.

3. The Grace strategy for growth is demonstrably linked to the Diaspora market as I have said... it's irrefutable... it's so important that they have made it their MISSION...

Nice discussion... let's agree to disagree on these big policy issues?