Would it be acceptable to use "War" tactics to fight crime?

[MissLondon]

I mean acceptable to the Jamaican public? How far are the jamaican people willing to allow the security forces to go, in order to fight crime?
Im thinking of a Sri Lankan government vs the Tamil tigers type conflict. Who would support this?

[Lazie]

I mean acceptable to the Jamaican public? How far are the jamaican people willing to allow the security forces to go, in order to fight crime?
Im thinking of a Sri Lankan government vs the Tamil tigers type conflict. Who would support this?

Based on the type of weapons said to be in TG and that the gunmen are willing to die, then grant them their wish. The matter needs to be handled in a manner that the residence know that if a safe haven is provided for gunmen, then there will be consequences.

[Karl]

Well some are already suggesting that the barricade of Tivoli by criminal elements works too ways - an attempt to prevent the security forces from entering to remove criminals...and a self-trapping of selves by large %age of criminals.

...who the security forces should extricate "dead or alive"!

Sounds to me like many are clamoring for "war of the criminals in Tivoli"l

[Mosiah]

It's all a matter of degree. We certainly need to be more forceful in enforcing the law. But I am very concerned about the safety of the good residents of TG. Despite the march and all that, the residents are not free to do what they like. I would be totally against a widescale assault on the area.

[Karl]

It's all a matter of degree. We certainly need to be more forceful in enforcing the law. But I am very concerned about the safety of the good residents of TG. Despite the march and all that, the residents are not free to do what they like. I would be totally against a widescale assault on the area.

That is why in the BUD POLICY it is stressed that the surgical removal of the criminals in Tivoli who have afforded the security forces, by their massing in that locale, a once in lifetime opportunity.

Security forces lay down and clear - flat open ground starting from one-quarter of a mile away from Tivoli...encircling entire Tivoli...in a circle around Tivoli...moving barricades forward 'foot at a time'...until the cleared area (a quater-mile swathe - where those who give up shall have to cross to reach the exit point.

Note only one security forces predetermined exit area MUST BE USED to reach the 'holding area'...all other sections of the cleared area surrounding Tivoli breached is a security forces' BUD KILLING FIELD)..

Broadcast on piped in 'loud-speakers'/megaphones'...and on all radio and TV channels that after 1 hour any person seen with a weapon on person will be deemed a criminal and will be approached with great caution with the possibility of deadly force being used. (Just the way of saying dem deh mek dem-self BUD).

Come out...give up via the security forces constructed exit point - e.g. under the guns of the security forces - sterile area (cleared open area) to narrow latticed fenced, barb-wired walk-way with 20 feet high-sided wire-fence that leads to wide fenced area with desk and chair and 2 officers to 'cuff' and 'foot shackle' leading to secure transport...with security lined road exit to 'secure holding area' - gun court, Tower Street prison, etc. ...five or six 'transportation vehicles' specially prepared - rivited bolts, etc. to further cuff and shackle the now prisoners/detainees.


Any and all equipment needed if not in the position of the security forces by order of the courts commandeered from the private sector.

The SWAT TEAMS' snipers will do the surgical removal afford all others fullest possible protection from grievous bodily harm (just a way of saying to all Jamaica that those who hugged up the gunmen, if killed extremely sorry...but inadvertent. After all is said and done rifles using 50 caliber rounds and other weapons with greater velocity and killing circle only cause collateral damage)!

Time to go and cleanse the land. Let's go!

[Islandman]

Its an ongoing debate. We have had a history of extrajudicial killings by the police so while most support the security forces being a very tough crime, frequently there are situations where the police shoot first and ask questions later.

Of course the people who suffer from this the most are the poorest citizens, so when some fatcat from uptown says the police should treat it the way you suggest, it quickly becomes a class warfare issue.

Very difficult issue to deal with.

[MissLondon]

It's all a matter of degree. We certainly need to be more forceful in enforcing the law. But I am very concerned about the safety of the good residents of TG. Despite the march and all that, the residents are not free to do what they like. I would be totally against a widescale assault on the area.

Would you say that the storing of arms and weapons in the area is a declaration or war? Is so, would you agree that "collateral damage" is an unavoidable part of war.

[Lazie]

Its an ongoing debate. We have had a history of extrajudicial killings by the police so while most support the security forces being a very tough crime, frequently there are situations where the police shoot first and ask questions later.

Of course the people who suffer from this the most are the poorest citizens, so when some fatcat from uptown says the police should treat it the way you suggest, it quickly becomes a class warfare issue.

Very difficult issue to deal with.

Well the police have shown restraint so far, (or maybe dem fraid) suh if and when things kick off, doubt no one can blame the police here.

[Islandman]

I would rather it be treated as a threat to national security, rather than all-out war.

I still believe that with the right technology and intelligence this does not have to end in a total bloodbath. The US wants him and the US has the tools so they should be a big part of this operation. Maybe they are and we don't know it yet.

Dudus is a dangerous dude but he is not Bin laden. They can identify where he is, go in, capture or take him out, and then we can focus on the backlash from the community when he is no longer in the picture.

[Karl]

I would rather it be treated as a threat to national security, rather than all-out war.

I still believe that with the right technology and intelligence this does not have to end in a total bloodbath. The US wants him and the US has the tools so they should be a big part of this operation. Maybe they are and we don't know it yet.

Dudus is a dangerous dude but he is not Bin laden. They can identify where he is, go in, capture or take him out, and then we can focus on the backlash from the community when he is no longer in the picture.

It would be soooo...an opportunity missed if only Dudus was taken out.

[Jawge]

Yes and clearly it's now a military operation. If you stockpile certain weapons in England, then turn around threaten the state; it won't be a police matter anymore. It will become a military affair, hence you will see men in camouflage suits. If Ja had a real military they people in Tivoli wouldn't be acting that way. It would be a simple operation for the police to do the extraction (but because Ja has no apache gunship helicopter et al fools can brandish small arms and threaten the state).

[Islandman]

I am sure in practice it would not be just him, he will have people defending him.

But the point is, going in using brute force on the ground is not going to be pretty for either out security forces or the regular citizens. There are other ways, it might take longer and more patience but I would prefer that than seeing a Tivoli uprising on CNN. For example, are supplies being allowed to go into the area as normal?

Whatever the approach, Tivoli needs to be occupied by the military for an indefinite period after the initial operation.

Let us hope our PM is planning some strategy from his "undisclosed location".

[Karl]

I am sure in practice it would not be just him, he will have people defending him.

But the point is, going in using brute force on the ground is not going to be pretty for either out security forces or the regular citizens. There are other ways, it might take longer and more patience but I would prefer that than seeing a Tivoli uprising on CNN. For example, are supplies being allowed to go into the area as normal?

Whatever the approach, Tivoli needs to be occupied by the military for an indefinite period after the initial operation.

Let us hope our PM is planning some strategy from his "undisclosed location".

How big is Tivoli?
Square miles?

How many homes?

How many inhabitants - Men? Women? Children 15+ to Under 20? Children under 15?

[Bricktop]

The Jamaican public will tell you to go in and get Dudus and eliminate all gunman...when you follow what dem tell yuh dem tun round write newspaper article bout di dutty murdering police force

[MissLondon]

Yes and clearly it's now a military operation. If you stockpile certain weapons in England, then turn around threaten the state; it won't be a police matter anymore. It will become a military affair, hence you will see men in camouflage suits. If Ja had a real military they people in Tivoli wouldn't be acting that way. It would be a simple operation for the police to do the extraction (but because Ja has no apache gunship helicopter et al fools can brandish small arms and threaten the state).

This is what Im getting at, this type of criminality wouldn't be accepted in countries like England, the army would have been called in and bombs dropped a long time ago.