No to Dudus extradition, no to US demands

[Rockman]

They have yet to exercise that so-called (arrogated)right, the only thing unchallenged is their right to chat.
The group I am alluding to does not include England etc, they are the victims of those super powers, and if ecomonically speaking those countries are successful then others(with similar gripes) will follow.
Regarding the guns from America, Jamaica's position is staked on right.
The philosophical argument is the issue has nothing to do with the "who"(Dudus), that is irrelevat in the grand scheme of things.I believe that is the unresolved problem.






Blessed

[Rockman]

OBTW, one could argue terror suspects from(bearing British Passports) England in US custody have a better chnace( than other..) of being released because of England's influence, often those suspects weren't even born in England.

One of the issues raised by the writer is how we Jakans roll over on issues involving the US, the bulk of criticisms of that article is marked by the very submissive attitude described by the author(concessions are made that the US is complicit but we are said to be too insignificant to make any difference).



Blessed

[ReggaeMike]

They have yet to exercise that so-called (arrogated)right, the only thing unchallenged is their right to chat.

Since 1990? Are you kidding?

Noriega. Extraordinary renditions.

The group I am alluding to does not include England etc, they are the victims of those super powers, and if ecomonically speaking those countries are successful then others(with similar gripes) will follow.

Okay then, well don't keep everyone else in the dark except yourself. Name the group you actually are alluding to which supposedly has leverage over the US. I hope you aren't referring to places like Israel or North Korea though since they aren't remotely comparable to Jamaica and Dudus.

Regarding the guns from America, Jamaica's position is staked on right.
The philosophical argument is the issue has nothing to do with the "who"(Dudus), that is irrelevat in the grand scheme of things.I believe that is the unresolved problem.

The "who" can't be irrelevant. Without the who there wouldn't be any illegal guns from America since guns can't walk or swim by themselves (well not yet).

Besides, wouldn't it be a bit illogical for the "who" in Jamaica to be irrelevant, but for the "who"s in America (the ones selling the guns) to be all so important? A transaction takes two: buyer and seller. Without either one there is no deal and no guns.

[ReggaeMike]

One of the issues raised by the writer is how we Jakans roll over on issues involving the US, the bulk of criticisms of that article is marked by the very submissive attitude described by the author(concessions are made that the US is complicit but we are said to be too insignificant to make any difference).



Blessed

C'mon Rockman. I expect better than that from you. Pointing out facts, even in a sarcastic way is not submissive. How is it submissive to recognize that the US has far more resources than Jamaica ever will and as such Jamaica may not be able to carry out the investigations necessary to really put a dent in the illegal gun sellers in the US? Does that make other small countries who recognize this fact and act differently (such as Mauritius and Singapore) submissive? How is it submissive to point out that the extermination of the American Indians has nothing to do with Obama? How is that even relevant to the issue today? Is America about to send Dudus and Tivoli residents on a Trail of Tears? Or limit them to operating casinos in the desert? And how is it submissive to point out the hypocrisy of the author of said article who has in the past compared the very country he now lives in with Nazi Germany and apartheid South Africa while at the same time pontificating on what Jamaicans who do not live in a nice, safe house in Florida should do or think? If we Jamaicans in Jamaica are submissive according to him, what does that make him? A traitorous collaborator perhaps? After all he isn't out here teaching children to make a more productive society or producing goods for foreign exchange for Jamaica. I don't believe he is a collaborator or traitorous, but I do believe he is highly hypocritical.

[Rockman]

Panama is a far cry from England.
Venezuela, Cuba...,
It seems like only the Jakan 'who' is relevant, where is the evidence that isn't so?What to do?


Blessed

[Rockman]

Dudus is responsible for a small percentage of illegal guns in Ja, he inherited an arsenal that he increased, as did others before him and will after him. A friend once told me the solution to the trash problem in the city is to place a price on trash, people will spend all day picking up trash if they will get pay for their bounty.Bet you if lawsuits against US gun dealers/manufacturers by the Jakan family of gun victims are successful we would eventually see a decrease in the amount of illegal guns in Ja.


Blessed

[ReggaeMike]

Dudus is responsible for a small percentage of illegal guns in Ja, he inherited an arsenal that he increased, as did others before him and will after him.

But that is side-skirting the issue Rockman and you know this. So are we then to say that it is better that nothing be done at all than to actually have law enforcement go after even one man who may be responsible for even 1 illegal gun?

[ReggaeMike]

Tried to write a response to the analogy of the trash and gun problems, but the internet giving me trouble. Might send it to you in a PM and try post it for general reading later.

[ReggaeMike]

Panama is a far cry from England.
Venezuela, Cuba...,
It seems like only the Jakan 'who' is relevant, where is the evidence that isn't so?What to do?


Blessed

So Rockman, is which group of countries you were referring to that were analogous to Jamaica in having leverage? Venezuela and Cuba? The same Venezuela which exports oil to the US and the same Cuba which has been wise enough since the 1962 missile crisis get itself in the kind of pickle Jamaica finds itself in? Remember that Cuba specifically instructed its nationals (military and otherwise) in Grenada in 1983 not to obstruct the Americans - that's not exactly leverage in action.

Plus please don't pretend that Panama is a far cry from the UK. I already provided a link in the which US outright said they can and will kidnap anybody, anywhere including the UK.

And what about extraordinary renditions since 2001? You haven't addressed those even though they are exactly the kind of cases of America exercising "that so-called (arrogated)right" to kidnap people since 1990.

And you know it is not only the Jamaican 'who' that is relevant, but what your saying disturbingly sounds like a defence of the Jamaican 'who' even though to take down the whole operation at some point the Jamaican 'who' and the American 'who's will both be extremely relevant. If this case were to reveal the sources of some of the illegal guns wouldn't that then be important so that Jamaica can then go after them? Or is it that Jamaica must wait on the US to go after these arms-dealers whilst expecting the US to totally ignore those Jamaican drug-dealers who are involved in breaking US laws? Sauce for the goose not being sauce for the gander? It shouldn't matter if the 'who' is Jamaica, American or Alien. As long as they are involved in activities which support murder they should be put behind bars and it shouldn't matter whose bars.

[Rockman]

Mawning ReggaeMike.
I could've mentioned pretty much every Latin American country, I decided with two, Venezuela because of its economic independence(yeah the oil exports)and Cuba because of the ideological differences;a reminder the World is still divided.
Recently some Latin America and the Carribean..agreed to form a new regional body,the US was excluded..

That right is arrogated if it is against international law.

Again the emphasis is placed solely on the buyer,the investigation had to determine the seller..,what happened to those sellers(they do not need an extradition treaty)?
In any event it is bigger than some guy that sells guns from the trunk of his cars or some girlfriend(straw purchase).., manufacturers make more guns than they know they will sell legally;that is to facilitate the illegal market. For a country whose people are under serious international threat, the US seems keen on arming its enemies, guns laws are relaxed,and the ports seems wide open regarding exports.


Blessed

[Rockman]

No, I will hold Bruce accountable,and am aware that Dudus is waaay too powerful.
I am alluding to the solution to our gun problem requires more than arresting a Jakan player, we have to go to the source and demand change.
It is like going beyond arresting cocaine dealers by burning dowm poppy fields.



Blessed

[Karl]

I don't believe he is a collaborator or traitorous, but I do believe he is highly hypocritical.

It may just be that he thinks all...OK! ...the majority...of us, stupid!

[ReggaeMike]

Okay, understandable, but let's see if what I tried to post last time will post now:

There are actually many solutions to the trash problem and the analogous gun problem (and the cocaine and opium problem - by the way you don't get rid of cocaine by burning down poppy fields; cocaine comes from coca, opium comes from poppies). Paying people to pick up trash is one way. Another way is to force people to pay for putting trash out in the first place (which is more analogous to your lawsuits against gun manufacturers example) - Cayman does this as they have a nice fat Caymanian $500 fine for littering (the equivalent of J$54,000 for dropping a chewing gum rapper). Educating people not to litter in the first place is another.

[ReggaeMike]

Seems like I will have to post it bit by bit:

part 2:

The best solution however would probably involve combining all of the innovative solutions so the problem can be attacked from multiple angles - so educate people not to drop litter and inculcate a culture of cleanliness and at the same time impose heavy fines for litterers and put a price on all trash that is picked up. Those 3 approaches will allow for trash to be cleaned up and at the same time strike at the root of the trash problem (since simply paying people to pick it up won't necessarily introduce a cleanliness culture and may even encourage schemes whereby folks drop litter in public places for their pals to clean up (and to be seen cleaning up) so as to get money).

[ReggaeMike]

part 3:


Likewise the best solution to the gun problem is unlikely to be solely suing the gun dealers/manufacturers because:

1. No lawsuit will ever, ever change America's very liberal policy towards guns. If having their own high school kids get brutally gunned down hasn't changed it, then a bunch of lawsuits from "uppity foreigners" certainly won't. So lawsuits will never shut down gun manufacturing in the US. It might shut down one or two specific businesses, but others will pop up in their place and as long as guns can be made this will lead to the second reason why lawsuits are unlikely to be the sole solution: