From Mike: A Solid Discussion

[Peter R]

Don1, I hear you loud and clear...

We "big up " our athletes, rightly so, as we are no different from the rest of the world, but a Usain Bolt only comes along once in a generation, even for Jamaica. Are we "bigging up" our scholars.?.. and to be honest NOT even the scholars but rather academic achievement? regardless whether a Rhodes scholar or simply a person who has passed their CXCs and CAPE moving to the next level.

In T&T which officially boasts over 90+% literacy rates, those in the know that functional illiteracy is way higher than that which should obtain in a country with T&Ts resources.

I guarantee you that if I leave two cars parked at my gate with the windows down, one with a cell phone on the front seat and the other with a text book (of any subject) ... the book safe and sound and the cell phone...well, i's history.

At a family level is where the importance on education lies...but the horse bolt the gate in the last generation so what we have are criminals rearing criminals especially among the communities of African heritage, sad to say. The biggest problem we have is the politicians who do not see their constituents as persons but rather as votes and therefore getting your vote is all that counts... let the chips fall where they may. Keep the people ignorant and you can keep your seat, and all the privileges that accompany being in power; the system is rotten and those in it more so.

Sad, sad, sad... the hole is very deep and getting out is almost an impossible task! Very very sad! The most we can do is try and help your own family and next those few you meet who genuinely seek and want help.

[Assasin]

Peter when a youth graduate in Trinidad with two CXC pass or even 4, how often he has to stay on streets before finding a job?? Trini nationals now know that if they are educated there are jobs out there for them. I know a lot of Trinis left the states and went home and even a few born in the US because they say they have a chance of success now.

The unemployment for Jamaican youth is very bad and in most case it is not because of pure literacy but the chance to get a job is slim. Many with 2 and four passes can't get a chance to improve on that and try again. There younger siblings say "mi nah end up like you" with education and belly empty.

Sad but we have to change that before we can change anything.

[Don1]

Sad, sad, sad... the hole is very deep and getting out is almost an impossible task! Very very sad! The most we can do is try and help your own family and next those few you meet who genuinely seek and want help.

I believe we are either part of the problem or part of the solution.

It's not good enuff for someone who knows or claims to know the real deal to just sit back with commentary or criticism...we have to act to make some contribution for betterment... otherwise we are part of the problem.

[ReggaeMike]

Question any Singapore athlete every win a medal? you remember how the Indian nation celebrated when they had their first?

Re-read the original post. Singapore's athletes have won 2 silver medals in 13 Olympic Games (well 14 if you count the time they played as part of Malaysia).

[Peter R]

2 or even 4 CXC passes will get you a job at KFC... if you're smart you better off continuing studies and getting a trade. Jobs as sales clerks and at fast food outlets often go begging because some people prefer to work for CEPEP (akin to a crash program) because it pays you a days wages for 4 hours work.

The truth is you can get work if you want, but the jobs are by and large low paying (for 2-4 CXCs) unless you have a connection. The truth is 2-4 CXC represent the very basic in education.

For degreed individuals it isn't much better and certain expenses here, rent in particular is high; a young couple I know are getting married soon and looking for a place to rent and all they can find is in the $1,000 US a month range and that is probably close to half of their combined salaries.

They can downscale and move into a different area than what they're looking at but then it would be a rougher neighbourhood, or they can move out of POS and then batter with the traffic.

But you are correct, there are jobs to be had, however with the economic downturn unemployment did go up slightly but the official rate here is/was about 5% which is damn good. Ultimately tho you don't want a youth to make his career a KFC cook...(unless of course they start to pay a decent wage) that should be the interim and hopefully they can continue studies part-time. The T&T youth generally do not have the same excuses/reasons the JA yute has to be idling...

[Mosiah]

Simply amazing how unnu get people fi debate this topic!

[ReggaeMike]

Simply amazing how unnu get people fi debate this topic!

Well let me try with you.

What are you're views on the topic?

[Assasin]

No Peter I wouldn't expect to make it as a cook but having a job as a cook and doing a certification as a Chef could land you bigtime(you see what I mean?) and sooner or later if we can get these youths who are not dunce but fell behind into a job and give them oppurtunities like Exced etc. then they will move ahead. Sooner or later other kids leaving high school will realise they can work harder and do even more but currently the trend is to think whey they leave high school they are going to come to nothing even if they have 6 CXCs.

The fact is unemployment amongst Jamaica's youth is near or above
this is taken from a 2009 Gleaner editiorial
"In the 14-19 age group, for instance, when too many youngsters are, unfortunately, not in the education system, unemployment is around 40 per cent. It is 22 per cent for those in the 20-24 age group. This large cadre of unemployed and mainly unattached youth provides a [COLOR=orange !important][COLOR=orange !important]pool[/COLOR][/COLOR] from which they can be recruited into antisocial behaviour and even criminality."

That is a large pool of kids so even if the other 60 percent progress there is still 40% that is doing nothing.

[Mosiah]

there is much more emphasis on sports than academics in Jamaica.

Next topic!

[Karl]

Karl everything in life is relative....so no need to be literal in a calculus of total resources (money or even talk time) spent on education vs sports. That's not a rational approach to me.... that provides an excuse for our sorry education system and absolute LACK OF ADEQUATE ATTENTION TO EDUCATION...it's been consistently under-resourced from colonial times to the present....that is the problem.

I would love to see what you regard as examples of our world class achievers in education. Forget about those educated abroad.... the mere fact that people have to find excellence abroad is an indictment on Jamaica...much as we like to crow about them.

If Jamaica is as enarmored with education as you seem to believe (relative to what is REQUIRED to move the country forward) explain why we clearly have far more relative success in the sporting arena (relative to other countries with our resources)....and are so backward in education.

Explain that.

Could it be that with all our so called emphasis on education, according to your belief, ....our severe underachievement means that we don't have what it takes to succeed? Perhaps our true talents lie in sports...where we consistently overachieve?
Or maybe you don't believe we are backward in education?

In fact there is a causal relationship between poor education and great sports achievement. Our children see athletic success as a way out of poverty and towards a better education & better life.... since we have made it so difficult for them to succeed with a shytty education system.

Come up with a rational explanation for why in the 21st century Jamaica has maybe 40% rate of illiteracy/semi-literacy.... an explanation that doesn't include an almost criminal lack of attention to even the basics of primary education.

For all your talk...the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Dat pudden spwile lang time..... believing anything else is to live in a fantasy world.

I take it you are looking at the relative - sports and academics - results through the years? I also assume that you are saying to yourself, as I am, that not enough emphasis is being placed on either?

If we can start there then we can move on to successes in each area and compare returns on investment in each? Right?

There is the matter of relative value placed on individual achievement in each field - sport and education - and the matter of comparison of achievement in sports to that in academics.

Would a gold medal at the Olympics be as valuable as say, a Phd in one of the academic disciplines?

Then what about quantity - Phd's vs Gold Medals?

Don1, I am not here going into a long discussion on the need for 'fixing' our inadequate education system. In terms of the potential of our kids - Remember I have been on this board spouting for years that all our kids have the ability to...the innate ability to be high achievers in the classroom but for the inadequacies of the teachers and the conditions - (Interpret that "conditions" in as broad a manner as it, as fact, covers. Policy direction, curriculum and methods used to deliver the subject matter, physical structures, equipment, etc.) - under and within which our education system operates. Yes, a overhaul is needed. That is a given!

The question asked was a simple - sports or academics which has greater emphasis placed on it?

My answer is one word - academics!

That we have an eduction system that is, as fact, in a 'sorry state' and what should be done to make it "TOP OF THE WORLD class education system" is an entirely different thing.

[Don1]

I take it you are looking at the relative - sports and academics - results through the years? I also assume that you are saying to yourself, as I am, that not enough emphasis is being placed on either?

If we can start there then we can move on to successes in each area and compare returns on investment in each? Right?

There is the matter of relative value placed on individual achievement in each field - sport and education - and the matter of comparison of achievement in sports to that in academics.

Would a gold medal at the Olympics be as valuable as say, a Phd in one of the academic disciplines?

Then what about quantity - Phd's vs Gold Medals?

Don1, I am not here going into a long discussion on the need for 'fixing' our inadequate education system. In terms of the potential of our kids - Remember I have been on this board spouting for years that all our kids have the ability to...the innate ability to be high achievers in the classroom but for the inadequacies of the teachers and the conditions - (Interpret that "conditions" in as broad a manner as it, as fact, covers. Policy direction, curriculum and methods used to deliver the subject matter, physical structures, equipment, etc.) - under and within which our education system operates. Yes, a overhaul is needed. That is a given!

The question asked was a simple - sports or academics which has greater emphasis placed on it?

My answer is one word - academics!

That we have an eduction system that is, as fact, in a 'sorry state' and what should be done to make it "TOP OF THE WORLD class education system" is an entirely different thing.

I don't why it's so hard for you to see what's quite obvious.

No nation that takes education seriously has a 40% rate of illiteracy/semi-literacy.... well into the 21st century.

No nation (of our size) that DOESN'T take sport very seriously has Jamaica's enviable achievements & reputation in sport.

It's not rocket science...or is it?

[Karl]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
That I propose is not true. In my mind...as I have observed...in every measure that can be applied - number of persons involved (at every level), financial resources earmarked, number of persons who have attained world class status be it at home or abroad...results as sum totals that have 'attained', etc., etc. ...sports in not even close.

Karl, that may be true when you look at the sum of those at home AND abroad, but that would only mask what occurs on the island itself.

A number of those Jamaicans abroad went there for educational purposes and so education was their driving force. Having gone abroad many have established families and their descendants are sometimes counted when it comes to our media trumpeting the academic achievement of "Jamaicans" abroad (even if said Jamaican is only eligible for Jamaican citizenship and doesn't actually have it, or has Jamaican citizenship but has never lived on the island in decades).

At home we have a serious problem with education when 26,000 children out of a cohort of 51,000 (according the education minister) either did not sit CXC-CSEC or got zero. And right throughout the region itself the value of sport versus academics is reflected in CXC: http://www.cxc.org/section.asp?Sec=4&SSec=15&Info=313

According to that press release the best overall performance in a CSEC subject by all regional candidates was.....Physical Education and Sport with 96% of entries receiving Grades I to III in 2009. Contrast that with Math (40% of entries awarded Grades I-III) and English Language (50%) and English Lit. (53%). Math and English are the basic tools of success and the region as a whole is having problems getting people to be able just to grasp these tools. Other subjects had better results but none nearly as good as PE. Chemistry, Biology and Physics all had candidates achieving results between 74 and 78%. Principles of Business got 80%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
I would hazard a guess that there is not of us on this board who do not wish for greater academic successes from and by our people. We must redouble efforts to find ways to unleash the innate ability of our children...indeed all our people to improve in the academics.

Totally agree.

Quote:
..but we do not have to belittle our people by promoting, what in my mind is the falsehood of claiming we put more emphasis on sports that the academics.
It is not a belittlement to acknowledge what various statistics point to. Whether it be in general examination performances, Jamaica's level of academically derived industries and businesses or the performance in the Olympics and elsewhere the stats strongly point to sports being far more appreciated than academics.



Quote:
There is and always has been an emphasis on improving subject knowledge of those who work to deliver 'education'.
Ah, I think I see where we might be misunderstanding each other. I don't wish to and have never implied that the educators are emphasizing sports over academics. It is the children themselves. The educators can move heaven and earth, but if the children do not show interest then nothing will happen with regards to their education. It comes down to the children themselves, their parents and their environment. When children live in noisy, uncaring environments and parents aren't really paying attention or are incapable of helping them, how will the child improve academically? If some parents are only focused on the child passing (and thus setting the bar rather low), how will the child attain the expected results (which are a "bare minimum")? If some parents emphasize sports even subconsciously by taking kids to all kinds of sporting events but never once picking up or buying a single science or business magazine for their child then what message is sent to the child?


Quote:
...but claiming our people are of the belief that sports is more important than academics is a falsehood!
That's your view and I can respect that, but I've provided a number of hard facts which indicate otherwise. How do you explain the sporting and academic achievements of Jamaica compared to Singapore if not by the fact that sports holds more importance in our society than it does in Singapore and probably holds slightly more importance than academics overall?

I don't wish to and have never implied that the educators are emphasizing sports over academics. It is the children themselves. The educators can move heaven and earth, but if the children do not show interest then nothing will happen with regards to their education. It comes down to the children themselves, their parents and their environment. When children live in noisy, uncaring environments and parents aren't really paying attention or are incapable of helping them, how will the child improve academically? If some parents are only focused on the child passing (and thus setting the bar rather low), how will the child attain the expected results (which are a "bare minimum")? If some parents emphasize sports even subconsciously by taking kids to all kinds of sporting events but never once picking up or buying a single science or business magazine for their child then what message is sent to the child?

- ReggaeMike - April 2010

ReggaeMike, There was a time whenever I had a teacher speak words similar to yours immediately above I would get so mad I was left shaking. Lost it totally.

If you believe as I do that - "If the child has did not learnt, it was the fault of the teacher", then you could understand where I am coming from.

I have tried to explain this many times on this board in many different ways. I do not think you were around.

Let me put forward my outlook in a simplistic manner. Children are like sponges. They are inquisitive to a fault. They also learn best when that introduction to something new is associated with 'fun' and that inquisitiveness is 'satisfied' and a 'new challenge' is presented.

Children want to understand all to which they are introduced. When the math or science teach cannot make the subject 'fun' and presents 'new challenges' as 'fun' to satisfy that inquisitiveness the child becomes bored and 'turned off'. It is not that the child cannot learn it is The educators who move heaven and earth ruining the child.


It is the educator, particularly when the children are young, who must move heaven and earth imparting the knowledge in a manner that is 'fun'...that encourages learning! ...any method used that 'turns off' the child is not teaching...it is the marring of the child.

That 60% in Math, 50% in English Language and 47% English Lit. results that cause dissatisfaction is a reflection of the work - teaching or should I more accurately say, marring that goes on in our classrooms being touted as teaching.

The 96% acceptable pass rate in Phy. Ed....Yes, those results show the Phy. Ed teachers pass on the knowledge in a 'fun' way. They satisfy the children hunger for learning. They are good teachers.

Where the other disciplines are concerned? Tell those searching for answers to better prepare the teachers.

Is it also necessary to work on the other ills within the education system? Absolutely!

Aside: ReggaeMike your above answer points to where the problem lies, blaming the students for reflecting the poor work being done by the teachers.

When you have those high failure rates as reflected in Math, English Language and English Literature in the CSEC...it says, teachers you have failed. Policy makers you have failed. Please...Please...Please...do not blame the students for turning out 'not fun' Math, English Language or English Literature results.

Turn the 'fun teaching' on and see 'bright-eyed kids' eager to be and actually engaged. Reap Phy. Ed type results.

Why do you think the kids learn the latest song and the Phy Ed? It is fun and satisfies the hunger to learn "it"!!!

Interest stirred?

Attention gain!
Curiosity piqued!
How dat guh?
How does it work?
How do you do that?
Show me?
Let me think on it?
Aaaaah that's it! ...kicks in!

Viola! Learning takes place!

Please do not blame the kids...rather think on how the info is imparted.

[Karl]

I don't why it's so hard for you to see what's quite obvious.

No nation that takes education seriously has a 40% rate of illiteracy/semi-literacy.... well into the 21st century.

No nation (of our size) that DOESN'T take sport very seriously has Jamaica's enviable achievements & reputation in sport.

It's not rocket science...or is it?

Nice!
You quantify literacy rate...but for sports it is our enviable achievements & reputation?



Start making real comparisons and we shall see where stands your previous claim of more emphasis being put on sports than education.

[Don1]

Nice!
You quantify literacy rate...but for sports it is our enviable achievements & reputation?



Start making real comparisons and we shall see where stands your previous claim of more emphasis being put on sports than education.

So you would like me to spell out our world class achievements in sports to compare with the failures in education?

Surely you jest.

Let's just agree to disagree.... ok?

[Karl]

Don1, I hear you loud and clear...

We "big up " our athletes, rightly so, as we are no different from the rest of the world, but a Usain Bolt only comes along once in a generation, even for Jamaica. Are we "bigging up" our scholars.?.. and to be honest NOT even the scholars but rather academic achievement? regardless whether a Rhodes scholar or simply a person who has passed their CXCs and CAPE moving to the next level.

In T&T which officially boasts over 90+% literacy rates, those in the know that functional illiteracy is way higher than that which should obtain in a country with T&Ts resources.

I guarantee you that if I leave two cars parked at my gate with the windows down, one with a cell phone on the front seat and the other with a text book (of any subject) ... the book safe and sound and the cell phone...well, i's history.

At a family level is where the importance on education lies...but the horse bolt the gate in the last generation so what we have are criminals rearing criminals especially among the communities of African heritage, sad to say. The biggest problem we have is the politicians who do not see their constituents as persons but rather as votes and therefore getting your vote is all that counts... let the chips fall where they may. Keep the people ignorant and you can keep your seat, and all the privileges that accompany being in power; the system is rotten and those in it more so.

Sad, sad, sad... the hole is very deep and getting out is almost an impossible task! Very very sad! The most we can do is try and help your own family and next those few you meet who genuinely seek and want help.

Agree....except

The most we can do is try and help your own family and next those few you meet who genuinely seek and want

It cannot be about only those who are "own family" and "the next few...". We live or die as one.