Desmond McKenzie takes on Peter Phillips

[Baddaz]

reggaemike, mek mi extend a welcome tuh yuh... pardon mi mannaz... alwayz good fi have some new membaz...

seriously reggaemike, mi just tyad... sometime mi dont even post... mi just read and watch de debate dem...

if yuh and 30 a yuh good frend dem offer up unuhself as candidates fi a new party, unuh have my vote... mi wi campaign and sell unuh program of change fi betterment...

short of dat, de system set a way whe wi affi just gwaan like wi deh a market a buy tomatoes and mangoes, feel up feel up till wi find a good one... strange analogy but a suh...

based on what i heard from trusted sources, peter phillips is a man of integrity and really have the country's interest at heart, despite his attending a don's funeral...

both parties (as don1 states many times) have corrupted individuals... however, not all are corrupted... i think the chicken has come home to roost and most of these corrupted politicians have begun to see that they are not operating in a vacuum... all eyes are on them like never before, the usa and its partners, the jamaican people and the diaspora...

we've reached the point where its either s hit or get off the pot... put up or shut up... this last stand by bruce golding in the extradition matter is a stark manifestation...

the jamaican people have had enough of both parties' dishonesty... the people wanted change and gave bruce a chance to drive de bus and he came with the same corrupt politics as usual...

so short of the system change to allow people like you to run, wi nuh have nuh choice at this time... just pick de lesser of the evils...

stick around, mi deh yah fi lissen yuh...

[MdmeX]

Don't leave Delroy Chuck out of the list of those who attended funerals of dons. Chuck conveniently had business abroad when his don was being buried, but he sent along a message. This way, he covered all bases. His constituents can't say he didn't care and there would never be any photos of him sitting in church for the don's funeral.

Yuh tink dem easy?!?

Dat's a smart man. Him listen to Shaggy - it wasn't me! LoL

[ReggaeMike]

Thanks for the welcome Baddaz.

based on what i heard from trusted sources, peter phillips is a man of integrity and really have the country's interest at heart, despite his attending a don's funeral...

both parties (as don1 states many times) have corrupted individuals... however, not all are corrupted... i think the chicken has come home to roost and most of these corrupted politicians have begun to see that they are not operating in a vacuum... all eyes are on them like never before, the usa and its partners, the jamaican people and the diaspora...

Unlike some people in the news recently, I won't press you to divulge the identities of your trusted sources.

I would be willing to give Phillips the benefit of the doubt but even if he is a man of integrity I just don't see how he can get anything done while:

a) he remains in the PNP

b) the PNP and JLP continue to take the majority of seats in parliament.

Note that Phillips lost the leadership race for the PNP twice - that might be an indication of how corrupt the PNP really is if Phillips is the man of integrity in that organization; the majority there don't want him and may well prefer the benefits derived from the super-corrupt in the party and thus are corrupt themselves.

Picture this scenario - It is 2013 and JLP candidates take 28 seats and PNP candidates take 32 seats. Let's even say that Ken Baugh is now leader of the JLP and takes up the position of Leader of the Opposition in parliament after Bruce had to step down for whatever reason (take your pick - either influential West Kingston men said they would deliver his head on a platter before delivering him the seat because Dudus got extradited/abducted or killed or some embarrassing secrets were aired). How would Phillips get anything done if Portia was still around? Let's make things even easier and say she too had to step down for the same reasons as Bruce (or to make it even easier still, lets say Portia and Bruce were nabbed on some kind of grand drug dealing conspiracy charge along with Dudus). How would Phillips get anything done if some of the PNP members who supported Portia and her style are still in parliament and he has to depend on them for votes?

Now I could more see him being able to do something if the results were 18 JLP candidates, 17 PNP candidates and 25 independents in parliament. In such a scenario he could work up a coalition between the independents and those few PNP candidates who support him and aren't corrupt. He wouldn't even need all of the PNP candidates and thus wouldn't really need the PNP. In fact it would be the party that would need him if it wished to remain in some kind of government position. Then he could set the agenda.

That won't scenario won't occur in 2013 unless something radical happens between now and then to encourage more independents to stand for election. In 1944 nearly 70 independents stood in elections for about 32 seats (and this doesn't include those candidates from the Jamaica Democratic Party and other parties) but in 2007 only 5 independents stood in elections for about 60 seats. In 1944 they even won 4 seats and ran the JLP and PNP candidates close in a number of others. Same electoral system but different as night and day due to the way the JLP and PNP have served to weaken democracy.

Maybe one can hope for a more varied parliament nonetheless. Besides the 5 independents there were about a dozen seats being contested by the NDM (which I suspect is tainted too) and the Rasta party. In the best case scenario we might see 17 non-traditional seats (i.e. not JLP or PNP) and maybe 22 JLP seats and 20 PNP seats (or if they bump the number of constituencies up to 63, which I think is actually unconstitutional by the way as I'm sure I read somewhere that the upper limit was 60) then it could be 17 non-traditional, 23 JLP and 23 PNP seats. That might allow someone with integrity from either party to really change things since they would probably have to form a coalition with the non-traditionals. Even with the worst case scenario (from our perspective) of 5 independents, 29 JLP and 29 PNP there would be a need for a coalition to be formed if either party wanted a shot at power and such a coalition might get some change as the independents would wield a lot of influence (basically - "stop doing what we don't like or we may join the opposition in a vote of no-confidence" or "we might throw our support behind the other guy and get him appointed PM half-way through your stint"). Even if that wouldn't change a lot of things, it might force them to cut back on the most blatant corruption.

[Don1]

Thanks for the welcome Baddaz.



Unlike some people in the news recently, I won't press you to divulge the identities of your trusted sources.

I would be willing to give Phillips the benefit of the doubt but even if he is a man of integrity I just don't see how he can get anything done while:

a) he remains in the PNP

b) the PNP and JLP continue to take the majority of seats in parliament.

Note that Phillips lost the leadership race for the PNP twice - that might be an indication of how corrupt the PNP really is if Phillips is the man of integrity in that organization; the majority there don't want him and may well prefer the benefits derived from the super-corrupt in the party and thus are corrupt themselves.

Picture this scenario - It is 2013 and JLP candidates take 28 seats and PNP candidates take 32 seats. Let's even say that Ken Baugh is now leader of the JLP and takes up the position of Leader of the Opposition in parliament after Bruce had to step down for whatever reason (take your pick - either influential West Kingston men said they would deliver his head on a platter before delivering him the seat because Dudus got extradited/abducted or killed or some embarrassing secrets were aired). How would Phillips get anything done if Portia was still around? Let's make things even easier and say she too had to step down for the same reasons as Bruce (or to make it even easier still, lets say Portia and Bruce were nabbed on some kind of grand drug dealing conspiracy charge along with Dudus). How would Phillips get anything done if some of the PNP members who supported Portia and her style are still in parliament and he has to depend on them for votes?

Now I could more see him being able to do something if the results were 18 JLP candidates, 17 PNP candidates and 25 independents in parliament. In such a scenario he could work up a coalition between the independents and those few PNP candidates who support him and aren't corrupt. He wouldn't even need all of the PNP candidates and thus wouldn't really need the PNP. In fact it would be the party that would need him if it wished to remain in some kind of government position. Then he could set the agenda.

That won't scenario won't occur in 2013 unless something radical happens between now and then to encourage more independents to stand for election. In 1944 nearly 70 independents stood in elections for about 32 seats (and this doesn't include those candidates from the Jamaica Democratic Party and other parties) but in 2007 only 5 independents stood in elections for about 60 seats. In 1944 they even won 4 seats and ran the JLP and PNP candidates close in a number of others. Same electoral system but different as night and day due to the way the JLP and PNP have served to weaken democracy.

Maybe one can hope for a more varied parliament nonetheless. Besides the 5 independents there were about a dozen seats being contested by the NDM (which I suspect is tainted too) and the Rasta party. In the best case scenario we might see 17 non-traditional seats (i.e. not JLP or PNP) and maybe 22 JLP seats and 20 PNP seats (or if they bump the number of constituencies up to 63, which I think is actually unconstitutional by the way as I'm sure I read somewhere that the upper limit was 60) then it could be 17 non-traditional, 23 JLP and 23 PNP seats. That might allow someone with integrity from either party to really change things since they would probably have to form a coalition with the non-traditionals. Even with the worst case scenario (from our perspective) of 5 independents, 29 JLP and 29 PNP there would be a need for a coalition to be formed if either party wanted a shot at power and such a coalition might get some change as the independents would wield a lot of influence (basically - "stop doing what we don't like or we may join the opposition in a vote of no-confidence" or "we might throw our support behind the other guy and get him appointed PM half-way through your stint"). Even if that wouldn't change a lot of things, it might force them to cut back on the most blatant corruption.

All that is interesting but that 3rd force scenario aint happening for now.

Jamaica has a top down power structure...change has to come from the top. The 2 parties are too entrenched in our psyche... 99% Jamaicans cannot even philosophically conceive of any other political matrix... other than PNP/JLP control enforced at gunpoint.
If a 3rd force emerges they will soon be coopted and corrupted by the shytstem...or demolished in the streets.

We have to hope/pray for/demand an enlightened leader(s) to take over at least one or preferably both parties... a Norman Manley statesman type who will start the long process of renewal and cleansing of our political system.

Golding had his chance...after less than 3 years he is already a colossal failure.

Jah kingdom continues going to waste.

[Willi]

Baddaz, yuh cant run in a garrison constituency and come out with clean hands unless you force a change there.

You cant claim integrity when you take wrong actions.

Peter is tainted on both counts. Does not mean that he cant change or that he is worse than any other in similar situations, but let's not fool ourselves.

Portia and Patsy are known gunhawks, but they are also pleasant in person. You cant expect to throw in junk and get precious gems coming out of the machine!

ReggaeMike has the most viable solution so far... a loose coalition of independents. Each one stands on their own, but they share a common marketing effort. Vote for new ideas, vote for independence, vote for known integrity, vote for a leader coming from your own community, someone you know and who has served voluntarily on the local school board or some other non-paying public entity that serves the good of all there.

We all know what true integrity and service looks like, we have seen it for all our lives and benefitted from it. Who run schools suppers and make sure our local schools and churches keep going? Who runs the few shelters and charities we have? Who makes the infirmes and the aged just a little bit more comfortable in the almshouses and retired homes that Govt so badly neglects?

These are among the people we should be looking at! We should test people based on SPIRITUAL criteria, whatever that means to us on a personal level. Otherwise we will be back to square 1.

[Willi]

I know.

They ARE real socialites now.

I should have said LabouRISTOS and Socialtes

[Don1]

Baddaz, yuh cant run in a garrison constituency and come out with clean hands unless you force a change there.

You cant claim integrity when you take wrong actions.

Peter is tainted on both counts. Does not mean that he cant change or that he is worse than any other in similar situations, but let's not fool ourselves.

Portia and Patsy are known gunhawks, but they are also pleasant in person. You cant expect to throw in junk and get precious gems coming out of the machine!

ReggaeMike has the most viable solution so far... a loose coalition of independents. Each one stands on their own, but they share a common marketing effort. Vote for new ideas, vote for independence, vote for known integrity, vote for a leader coming from your own community, someone you know and who has served voluntarily on the local school board or some other non-paying public entity that serves the good of all there.

We all know what true integrity and service looks like, we have seen it for all our lives and benefitted from it. Who run schools suppers and make sure our local schools and churches keep going? Who runs the few shelters and charities we have? Who makes the infirmes and the aged just a little bit more comfortable in the almshouses and retired homes that Govt so badly neglects?

These are among the people we should be looking at! We should test people based on SPIRITUAL criteria, whatever that means to us on a personal level. Otherwise we will be back to square 1.

Who will protect independents at the street level? No one.

They will be crushed by the JLP/PNP machines (literally) on the streets

The parties have to be reformed by leadership.... and the power of politicians on a whole reduced

[Muadib]

Colossal Failure..

heh, heh..

[Mosiah]

dem have a better word?

[Don1]

Colossal Failure..

heh, heh..

yep Chemical...colossal failure.

The first task of any Jamaican leader in our state now is moral & spiritual leadership to turn us away from degeneracy.

Drivah has flattered us only to deceive.... he is reinforcing and institutionalizing spiritual corruption....instead of reducing it as he promised...and taking it to an unprecedented level.

Colossal failure as a leader.

[Muadib]

Wheh yuh tink bout Audley performance to date ?

[Muadib]

Suh how yuh woulda classify PJ ?

lol..

[Muadib]

The first task of Drivah is to mek sure dat in 5 years time mi can siddung on Ocean Blvd at 1am while sipping some latte and enjoying a Jazz performance... mi need fi some farin white people springled in doing the same..

Is dat Social Contract mi ah defen...

[Mosiah]

you probably will be able to do dat, but that won't be because of drivah. try presi!

[Don1]

Suh how yuh woulda classify PJ ?

lol..

done talk dat areddy... one nex colossal failure...corrupt yes but incompetent above all else

his only saving grace is lack of direct ties to gunmanship & donship