Don1, the solution

[Willi]

is not to label tribalists, rather its to get entrenched people to broaden their views.

"Tribalists" are not mainly hypocrites, a few cynical ones are perhaps, but rather people who genuinely believe their views to be right. PNP people genuinely think that because the JLP is less likely to upset the status quo, that "dem dont like or dem want want black people fi progress". Labourites genuinely think that PNP people only want to look after their own, are cultic and cant manage competently.

The truth is very different, as the JLP has founded many social development institutions, built many schools, and actually have less garrisons. Edwin Allen even shook Joshua's hand in Parliament when he declared free eddikation! It is also not more "brown" than the PNP if you do a head count. The PNP, have had many competent people in it like Nethersole, Daddy Manley, lots of good lawyers, people who understand business like Danny williams and Claude Clarke. PNP early developmental foundation with Daddy Manley and Joshua's social push in the 1970s were key foundations on which we made necessary advancements. Michael's second stint as PM could be characterised as economically solid.

The trick is to get people to recognize the areas of shortcomings as well as the successes and understand how to build on them. Despite the bitter struggle for power, in general, we have tended to switch parties in power. Indeed, all the campaigning and shenanighans may not have changed the long term power turnover ratio. I may hve been just as cheap for parties to sit quietly and wait their inevitable turn at bat. If we can all just see that, perhaps we can finally overstand that given the inevitable, we should just be motivated to take right action, ie do WHAT WE KNOW IS MORALLY CORRECT, JUST AND SENSIBLE. IN the medium to long haul, this stance WILL prevail.

[Sir X]

I agree a 100% and forgive me for labelling anyone tribalist , let me ask do you see any change coming from within Jamaica or will change come from outside ?

The Dudus matter is a prime example , if Dudus was found incriminating himself and others via wiretaps in breach of other citizens security why doesnt the Jamaica government have the will to prosecute.

How do we tackle this without uncle sam telling us to clean up the SH*T.

[Lazie]

I agree a 100% and forgive me for labelling anyone tribalist , let me ask do you see any change coming from within Jamaica or will change come from outside ?

The Dudus matter is a prime example , if Dudus was found incriminating himself and others via wiretaps in breach of other citizens security why doesnt the Jamaica government have the will to prosecute.

How do we tackle this without uncle sam telling us to clean up the SH*T.

Clap yuhself X. Finally moving away from the careless speculation. A valid question is put forth.

"if Dudus was found incriminating himself and others via wiretaps in breach of other citizens security why doesnt the Jamaica government have the will to prosecute?"

[Sir X]

Care to take a shot at it Lazie ? I am more interested in how we tackle it ?

[Lazie]

Care to take a shot at it Lazie ? I am more interested in how we tackle it ?

After reading an article in the Observer, it was the first question to cross my mind. If the JCF knew about that recording Dudus should have been charged already, because according to one attorney, illegally evidence can be used in Jamaican courts.

[Willi]

Patience Grasshopper.

I see 2 things.

1) Until more is revealed, dont assume anything. Those who you may think are hindering might be working behind the scenes (or maybe not). Let it play out a bit more.

2) Rejoice, because it is now almost inevitable that the old order will be destroyed. Dollyhouse mash up! This dont seem like it can play out any other way. If a man guilty, him affi pay down pan it! Unless yuh have a vested interest, that is good news.

Also, like a runaway train, this will scar people on all sides of the great divide and some neutrals too.

[Willi]

Pandora's box now open. The genie cant be restuffed into the bokkle.

SOMETHING must come outta dis, one way or another.

And in case anyone feels smug, DONT. This gonna get nasty and dont forget that the same knife whe stick sheeep stick goat.

US dont care a whit about our local divide!

[Don1]

is not to label tribalists, rather its to get entrenched people to broaden their views.

"Tribalists" are not mainly hypocrites, a few cynical ones are perhaps, but rather people who genuinely believe their views to be right. PNP people genuinely think that because the JLP is less likely to upset the status quo, that "dem dont like or dem want want black people fi progress". Labourites genuinely think that PNP people only want to look after their own, are cultic and cant manage competently.

The truth is very different, as the JLP has founded many social development institutions, built many schools, and actually have less garrisons. Edwin Allen even shook Joshua's hand in Parliament when he declared free eddikation! It is also not more "brown" than the PNP if you do a head count. The PNP, have had many competent people in it like Nethersole, Daddy Manley, lots of good lawyers, people who understand business like Danny williams and Claude Clarke. PNP early developmental foundation with Daddy Manley and Joshua's social push in the 1970s were key foundations on which we made necessary advancements. Michael's second stint as PM could be characterised as economically solid.

The trick is to get people to recognize the areas of shortcomings as well as the successes and understand how to build on them. Despite the bitter struggle for power, in general, we have tended to switch parties in power. Indeed, all the campaigning and shenanighans may not have changed the long term power turnover ratio. I may hve been just as cheap for parties to sit quietly and wait their inevitable turn at bat. If we can all just see that, perhaps we can finally overstand that given the inevitable, we should just be motivated to take right action, ie do WHAT WE KNOW IS MORALLY CORRECT, JUST AND SENSIBLE. IN the medium to long haul, this stance WILL prevail.

Nice views Willi.

Problem is I feel you are a wee bit pollyanna-ish here.... although I agree with the general thrust of your arguments.

How do we get these PNP & JLP partisans (starting with their leaders) to "broaden their views" and act in the national interest if they are not directly confronted with the reality of the destruction they are causing?

I believe that they have to be called out...strait....anyway that is my nature for most issues....plain talk cutting through the BS....unfortunately mi usually get inna trubble fi dat attitude....but mi cyaan help it Diplomat or politician I could not be.

I don't believe that the diehards of either party believe that their party is intrinsically "better" than the other from a nationalistic viewpoint.... well perhaps the JLP believes that but on recent results the PNP definitely cannot.
I think that the diehards base their beliefs on emotion and/or access to the spoils of tribal victory...as well as family/community tradition of support for this or that party.... many at the point of a gun.

With that mindset...no matter what folly their party perpetrates...while they might mildly grumble... the support for the party is always maintained....this I see as a big problem.

That is a mould or a shackle I refuse to follow any longer.... I leave that approach to the tribalists.

Both you and I know and agree that our problems have reached a spiritual level. The national disease we have is so profound that our very thinking, spirit & soul is dysfunctional.... there is no greater disease than that for a nation to overcome.

Overcoming that spiritual dysfunction I believe is the primary task of anyone who believes they should run di place. The economic issues are a SYMPTOM of our spiritual disorder (aka negative social relations) ...not the other way around. So as we strive to fix the economics...we bump up on that steel ceiling of social/spiritual dysfunction.

That's why we don't grow as our neighbours do....we don't fix the social relationship/spiritual issues. A two legged stool will not stand.

When I last lived in Jamaica 2003-2005 and start probe di place...I was appalled at the level of spiritual dysfunction.... right then and there I wrote off the PNP as currently constituted... as a dead organism...cancerous.

Problem was...though they were not in power then to prove otherwise...I was not seeing much possibility for fundamental renewal from the JLP based on their actions & policy statements. Just more of the same...when we need radical change.

Apart from just the needed breath of fresh air from electoral change in 2007... I still have not seen enuff from Golding & the JLP to be hopeful.... worse now since he has openly sided with disorder and continued spiritual dysfunction re this Dudus affair.

Very disappointing...no...depressing.

[Willi]

Truth and reconcilation style encounter.

No way to avoid it. Jamaica has to face itself, look the Devil in the eye and conquer it. We MUST confront ourslves if we wish to raise the current lifestyle paradigm to a higher order.

We have let the dark hearts take way too much control. Rather, we have to decide as a people to do what is right and reform those who strayed.

Or we can continue sliding as we have.

The key will be crisis and currently, we have one with the US confrontation (external). Story will come to bump with this one and things will have to change as a consequnce.

[Jawge]

also factor in race ; as Ben(a JLP supporter) repeatedly that blacks lack the intelligence to manage money and lead Ja to success.

[Willi]

That is clearly a tongue in cheek reference to provoke people like you.

Except for a few ignorant veranda gossiper types, no one seriously believes that. Barbados/Bahamas (our close and visible neighbours) stand to disprove that folly in no uncertain terms.

[Don1]

Truth and reconcilation style encounter.

No way to avoid it. Jamaica has to face itself, look the Devil in the eye and conquer it. We MUST confront ourslves if we wish to raise the current lifestyle paradigm to a higher order.

We have let the dark hearts take way too much control. Rather, we have to decide as a people to do what is right and reform those who strayed.

Or we can continue sliding as we have.

The key will be crisis and currently, we have one with the US confrontation (external). Story will come to bump with this one and things will have to change as a consequnce.

boss...mi hope suh!

The most inspirational example of warfare (no genocide!) ..then reconciliation, cooperation and progress is provided by Rwanda. Amazing!

They did that by inspired national leadership...and looking to their traditional folkways of community discussion and cooperation to resolve the problems of justice & development after the genocide..

Jamaica badly needs to study that...and implement our version of it.

If Rwanda can do it so quickly with a much worse situation than us...why can't Jamaica?

[Willi]

"When I last lived in Jamaica 2003-2005 and start probe di place...I was appalled at the level of spiritual dysfunction.... right then and there I wrote off the PNP as currently constituted... as a dead organism...cancerous.

Problem was...though they were not in power then to prove otherwise...I was not seeing much possibility for fundamental renewal from the JLP based on their actions & policy statements. Just more of the same...when we need radical change."

Yuh sound like Burke!

But Ken Chin-Onn was not a JLP supporter as most people might believe. He was the research officer of the PNP and in 1972 he became the PNP general secretary. I remind everyone about this in light of what I said on TVJ's All Angles last week and what I wrote in my last column. I said and wrote that if Prime Minister Bruce Golding calls an election now, the JLP would win because the PNP is not
election-ready. When I stated that the JLP would win the 2007 parliamentary election many people saw it as an indication of my political preference and I hear it again in light of last week.
But that is not so at all. I am not for "he, she or the old lady". Those that accuse me of bias because I asked a question about disparity in extraditing people should look into themselves to see if the bias is mine or theirs. I am a Norman Manleyist and a socialist, but that does not mean that I like the way in which the PNP does things today. I maintain that the greatest difference between the PNP and the JLP today is in the spelling.

[Don1]

"When I last lived in Jamaica 2003-2005 and start probe di place...I was appalled at the level of spiritual dysfunction.... right then and there I wrote off the PNP as currently constituted... as a dead organism...cancerous.

Problem was...though they were not in power then to prove otherwise...I was not seeing much possibility for fundamental renewal from the JLP based on their actions & policy statements. Just more of the same...when we need radical change."

Yuh sound like Burke!

But Ken Chin-Onn was not a JLP supporter as most people might believe. He was the research officer of the PNP and in 1972 he became the PNP general secretary. I remind everyone about this in light of what I said on TVJ's All Angles last week and what I wrote in my last column. I said and wrote that if Prime Minister Bruce Golding calls an election now, the JLP would win because the PNP is not
election-ready. When I stated that the JLP would win the 2007 parliamentary election many people saw it as an indication of my political preference and I hear it again in light of last week.
But that is not so at all. I am not for "he, she or the old lady". Those that accuse me of bias because I asked a question about disparity in extraditing people should look into themselves to see if the bias is mine or theirs. I am a Norman Manleyist and a socialist, but that does not mean that I like the way in which the PNP does things today. I maintain that the greatest difference between the PNP and the JLP today is in the spelling.

LoL! Dat ah Michael Burke? Mi kno imm good good fram skool days wen im a lecture wi as yutes..

Yuh neva waan dat deh breddah ketch yuh wen yuh ave bizniz fi du...mi neva si ah man cyan chat like dat yet....

[Jawge]

Yeah willi ; you and I may know this but what if a political party is of that philosophy? Picture this : a Prince who was educated in the universities of Mali was captured and sold into slavery (via the schemes of a jealous kin) Now this slave can read, write, speak more than one language. The slave is helppful to the master who can't read but is a representitive in local govt. (all because of skin colour) sounds familiar.Look around Ja and not just at politics; use your third eye brother. Just trying to provoke thought; hope I did a good job.