Nothing new under the Sun..

[Muadib]

•Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels: "Defending against the Jewish danger is only part of our plan. [Jews have] attempted to mobilize the world against us, in the secret hope of winning back the territory it has lost."

•Ugandan Ethics and Integrity Minister James Nsaba Buturo: "It is the duty of Ugandans to be vigilant because agents of immorality are busy using all lies and deceptions to hurt our society."


•Nazi politician Dr. Robert Ley: "There is no room in the world for the Jews any more. The Jew or us, one of us will have to go."

•Ugandan cleric Sheikh Ramathan Shaban Mubajje: "I asked President Museveni to get us an island on Lake Victoria and we take these homosexuals and they die out there. If they die there then we shall have no more homosexuals in the country."

•Adolf Hitler, from Mein Kamf: "Was there any form of filth or crime...without at least one Jew involved in it. If you cut even cautiously into such a sore, you find like a maggot in a rotting body, often dazzled by the sudden light - a Jew."

•Ugandan Sheikh Multah Bukenya: Quoted as saying that his followers are "ready to act swiftly and form this squad that will wipe out all abnormal practices like homosexuality in our society."

•Nazi Nuremberg Laws of 1935: "Marriages between Jews and citizens of German or kindred blood are forbidden...Sexual intercourse between Jews and subjects of the state of Germany or related blood is forbidden."

Proposed Legislation in Uganda: "A person who purports to contract a marriage with another person of the same sex commits the offence of homosexuality and shall be liable on conviction to imprisonment for life."


What we need is a Social Contract....

[Willi]

Juxtaposition is NOT an argument.

While I agree that we Jakans go overboard with the anti-T'Guy thing...this is not a solid foundational argument to redress anything.

We will all have different views, but there must be a minimally acceptable standards of behaviour driven by genuine compassion.

Personally, I think that it is a perversion of Spirit, but it is a personal cross that the individuals have to bear. Societies only involvement should be in showing an alternative....preferably through personal examples in the way we live as heteros. Unfortunately what our society as a whole shows in largely downpressing, rather than uplifting.

Like it or not, they are our brothers and sisters!

[Historian]

Excellent Argument, Willi!

Juxtaposition is NOT an argument.

While I agree that we Jakans go overboard with the anti-T'Guy thing...this is not a solid foundational argument to redress anything.

We will all have different views, but there must be a minimally acceptable standards of behaviour driven by genuine compassion.

Personally, I think that it is a perversion of Spirit, but it is a personal cross that the individuals have to bear. Societies only involvement should be in showing an alternative....preferably through personal examples in the way we live as heteros. Unfortunately what our society as a whole shows in largely downpressing, rather than uplifting.

Like it or not, they are our brothers and sisters!

Excellent points, Willi, and one of the best responses I’ve seen so far anywhere on the issue. In fact, I agree 100% with every sentence in your reply quoted above.

Nothing is wrong with being conservative, as even liberals have a conservative side. But on the matter of homosexuality, the Jamaican society takes things to extremes, and the backward, ultra-conservative approach of our leaders don’t help at all! For example, why are people who attack alleged gays not arrested by the police for assault?

Basically, your comments are so logical that it’s amazing that people don’t realize that it is the best alternative in democratic societies!

[Muadib]

Do you know any Gay people ?

I dare seh they would take offense to your characterization..

You have made several leaps.. don't even know where to start..

How do you draw a correlation between 'Spirituality' and Sexual Orientation ?

It is a personal cross I agree.. and that is a due to the present social construct..

It was and is a personal cross to be Black... it was (and maybe still is) also viewed as a type of 'perversion of spirit'...

Nothing new under the Sun..

It is not your sexual orientation that defines you as a human being.. food for thought..

[Peter R]

Willi, your last line is correct and until we treat one another as brothers and sisters we'll always have conflict...

[Willi]

Who said what defines you? I did not.

Yes, I know some Gay people.

I also gave my personal opinion. That is my own business, and I dont really care if offence is taken. Right is absolute and I believe I am in the right here, so there you have it.

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING is spiritual. Gwaan fool yuhself otherwise. We all good at self delusion.

Being black is not same same as being gay, which is not the same as being a paedophile (for example). So please lay off the flippant equating of situations and try doing some deeper analysis.

[Muadib]

In whose eyes ?

Was not the Bible used to defend racism ???

Flippant ? lol.. wrong again.. deep Critical Thinking assists me to arrive at the inescapable conclusion.. man will use whatever tools at his disposal to support behaviour or attitudes born out of non-rational thought and fear..

Your stance is irrational...

I see you like to talk about Spiritual.. does a 'Spirit' have a sexual orientation ?

What is relevant, the mutual love of one being for another or the anatomy of said beings ?

[Willi]

So Love is now sexuality?

Bible is religiousity and I speak of spirituality.

Man will use whatever tool to rebel against Creation and what IS. That includes what you call Critical thinking.

My stance is not irrational, you just cant or wont see it. No harm, no foul, as I am not forcing anything down anybodies throat.

It was reported to me that the celebrated Gay rights activist and poet Alan Ginsberg said he did not think that being gay was natural...but rather a deviation of Cosmic Design. Something souls had to work through in order to regain a certain balance lost somehow.

Finally Love can never be wrong, but actions can certainly be wrong.

[Muadib]

It is rather amusing how much emphasis you place on the physical.. yet all the while talking about the Spiritual..

Answer the question.. Do YOU believe Spirits have sexual orientation...

[Willi]

The physical IS important. What you think drives the physical?

When I speak of spiritual, you seem to think seh a duppy mi ah talk bout! LoL

Spirits are above "orientation", per se...IMHO.

[Muadib]

so.. how low on the Totem pole is the physical manifestation of an expression of the spirit..

You have it all backways my friend..

[Willi]

The lowest of the low. The physical is Highest density, most sluggish form or energy.

Link me offline (try the Pers. Msg) as this is too much fi di forum. Pity we cant link up to discuss over jinks. this could be one monster argument. LoL

[Muadib]

it is one of the most important arguments of our times...

Maybe we can link up at Don1 place.. discuss over a Red Strip Bold or two..