It is Written: Without Vision ..the people shall Perish

[Don1]

Sorry...see below for the real post.

[Karl]

Voice on the streets is ELECTION NOW and it shall be THROW THE BUMs OUT.

The problem is we know the record of those who shall then become the government. How do we get a change of the "thought processes" such that "good things" are the result?

[Assasin]

Did you expect the JLP to run to the IMF in 2008? There were many stumbling blocks.

Because of our so much boasted about reserves at the time and the then IMF policies we couldn't get a loan.

The IMF was seen as the devil that mash up Jamaican economy and not be be entered in agreement with by a lot of people in Jamaica.

The government underestimated the world crisis. This is not uniqe to them as most of Europe and even the Obama admin underestimated it to some degree as well.

When saying so they could have made a few better decisions. We are where we are and a lot of blame to go around. We need to see a clear path forward, and the PNP need to start some come up with some alternatives.

There can be some positives in all of this but let us see.

[Don1]

Please see the Full Hundred below....... In answer to Peter.

Don1,

What are you saying? that if the other tribe were in power the same result would have manifested itself?

I actually believe that that is true; we were not insulated from the global meltdown and could not have expected the JLP to have put anything in place in the short time between their election and the global crash.

I don't really care who puts things right but we all need to work together and if this board is representative of collaboration, God help us.

The JLP inherited an economy on a knife edge...a house of cards. That's what the incompetent PNP handed over having completely mismanaged liberalization. When I last lived in Jamaica in 2003-2005, I was shocked...mostly at the level of spiritual degeneracy among people...rudderless, leaderless...and hopeless.

Unfortunately that degeneracy and hopelessness will only be compounded by these "solutions" forced on us by foreigners ie the IMF. There is no way that Jamaica as a nation will embrace the required sacrifice...knowing that there will be zero payoff for most of us down the line... this path is bound to fail.... unless it's supplanted by something Jamaicans all create and embrace.

Within weeks of commenting on this forum and having seen indications of the same type of stupid "leadership" from the new regime...similar to the incompetence and lack of vision of the PNP....I predicted a massive JLP failure.

The recession made the JLP failure more rapid and spectacular but their failure was assured from jump street due to their ignoring the real solutions to the country's problems ie the need to get more sectors involved in decision making and consensus building...AKA a social compact for development with shared sacrifices & benefits....collectively & publicly negotiated...especially with valid representatives of the poor at the table.

Jamaica needs a national mission, not stipulated by Government or politicians alone...they must have a role...but to get a national "buy in" to our mission...there must be a national debate...in the PUBLIC sphere, outside Parliament. Our current political structure of assembly and dialogue lacks credibility...it exists to rubber stamp the idiocy of our political and business class.

We need to retain our constitution and Parliament..yes...but this existing structure has taken us as far as it can and must be supplemented by a credible, people based mechanism for consensus & solutions...let Parliament rubber stamp that for a change...and not idiotic politicians and myopic, self serving business interests.

We need to put people at the center of our governance...this vapid British system does not and will not work for us...our DNA demands what Jamaicans like to call "respect"....that's the most important word in our culture...to the point where it is used as a salutation.

It is the lack of respect for the everyday man, learned from the British, embedded in our Parliamentary approach to governance and entrenched by our stupid politicians and greedy business class... that is our biggest impediment to progress.

Because of the absolute CRISIS we faced in 2007 when the JLP came to power, they needed to act fast with new policy....not just new faces doing the same bullshit. What they did was continue the failed policies and COMPOUNDED that by denying the terrible consequences of the recession until our situation was desperate....if we need to go the IMF we should have done so from late 2008...like other sane countries....not early 2010.

The JLP needed to realize that our problems CANNOT be fixed by orthodox economic policy...we are NOT orthodox people who respond well to that...that's clear from our history and embedded in our national DNA. We need not even to think outside the box...but to build a new box.

My thesis is that Jamaica has long been in a state that neither party can fix ....operating as we/they do now. The best that we can hope for under our current social practices is to develop not at all or much slower than our neighbours...so that is NOT a solution....for me anyway.

Even the vaunted 1980s that the JLP tribe holds up as some golden period with so called "growth" ...this was a complete chimera underwritten by massive US assistance to Seaga ...dawg nyam the poor and middle class suppa and the elites pocketed the benefits...which is why the genius Seaga was evicted in 1989. That trickle down Seaga model is NOT sustainable...it too is going nowhere.

We need a new box....fundamental reform of the way wi run di place. That calls for first VISION, and secondly STATESMANSHIP....qualities which currently don't exist in either tribe.

One by one people are waking up to the hopelessness of these 2 tribes and the way our system operates...I hope the reform comes before the insurrection...it nah guh pretty.

In fact, the insurrection has long begun...with 1600 murders/year...Jamaica is in what's called a low grade civil war...a few steps from anarchy.

It's time to circumvent the politicians and business class....bring more people to the decision making table.

Time for respect through a truly national dialogue and consensus building.

[Don1]

Voice on the streets is ELECTION NOW and it shall be THROW THE BUMs OUT.

The problem is we know the record of those who shall then become the government. How do we get a change of the "thought processes" such that "good things" are the result?

that's not a solution...more idiocy awaits.

[Don1]

Did you expect the JLP to run to the IMF in 2008? There were many stumbling blocks.

Because of our so much boasted about reserves at the time and the then IMF policies we couldn't get a loan.

The IMF was seen as the devil that mash up Jamaican economy and not be be entered in agreement with by a lot of people in Jamaica.

The government underestimated the world crisis. This is not uniqe to them as most of Europe and even the Obama admin underestimated it to some degree as well.

When saying so they could have made a few better decisions. We are where we are and a lot of blame to go around. We need to see a clear path forward, and the PNP need to start some come up with some alternatives.

There can be some positives in all of this but let us see.

As usual you miss the main point of my thesis.

To avoid the usual back and forth which will shed no light..let's just say that I understand your position...

[Historian]

Excellent Post!!

This is actually an excellent post!! The problems and alternatives are well stated, and logically so!

The truth is that it’s difficult, right now, to see an alternative to the alternatives and solutions suggested below by the poster, and I’m forced to wonder why on earth couldn’t our leaders have visualized and adopted a similar position?

Please see the Full Hundred below....... In answer to Peter.

The JLP inherited an economy on a knife edge...a house of cards. That's what the incompetent PNP handed over having completely mismanaged liberalization. When I last lived in Jamaica in 2003-2005, I was shocked...mostly at the level of spiritual degeneracy among people...rudderless, leaderless...and hopeless.

Unfortunately that degeneracy and hopelessness will only be compounded by these "solutions" forced on us by foreigners ie the IMF. There is no way that Jamaica as a nation will embrace the required sacrifice...knowing that there will be zero payoff for most of us down the line... this path is bound to fail.... unless it's supplanted by something Jamaicans all create and embrace.

Within weeks of commenting on this forum and having seen indications of the same type of stupid "leadership" from the new regime...similar to the incompetence and lack of vision of the PNP....I predicted a massive JLP failure.

The recession made the JLP failure more rapid and spectacular but their failure was assured from jump street due to their ignoring the real solutions to the country's problems ie the need to get more sectors involved in decision making and consensus building...AKA a social compact for development with shared sacrifices & benefits....collectively & publicly negotiated...especially with valid representatives of the poor at the table.

Jamaica needs a national mission, not stipulated by Government or politicians alone...they must have a role...but to get a national "buy in" to our mission...there must be a national debate...in the PUBLIC sphere, outside Parliament. Our current political structure of assembly and dialogue lacks credibility...it exists to rubber stamp the idiocy of our political and business class.

We need to retain our constitution and Parliament..yes...but this existing structure has taken us as far as it can and must be supplemented by a credible, people based mechanism for consensus & solutions...let Parliament rubber stamp that for a change...and not idiotic politicians and myopic, self serving business interests.

We need to put people at the center of our governance...this vapid British system does not and will not work for us...our DNA demands what Jamaicans like to call "respect"....that's the most important word in our culture...to the point where it is used as a salutation.

It is the lack of respect for the everyday man, learned from the British, embedded in our Parliamentary approach to governance and entrenched by our stupid politicians and greedy business class... that is our biggest impediment to progress.

Because of the absolute CRISIS we faced in 2007 when the JLP came to power, they needed to act fast with new policy....not just new faces doing the same bullshit. What they did was continue the failed policies and COMPOUNDED that by denying the terrible consequences of the recession until our situation was desperate....if we need to go the IMF we should have done so from late 2008...like other sane countries....not early 2010.

The JLP needed to realize that our problems CANNOT be fixed by orthodox economic policy...we are NOT orthodox people who respond well to that...that's clear from our history and embedded in our national DNA. We need not even to think outside the box...but to build a new box.

My thesis is that Jamaica has long been in a state that neither party can fix ....operating as we/they do now. The best that we can hope for under our current social practices is to develop not at all or much slower than our neighbours...so that is NOT a solution....for me anyway.

Even the vaunted 1980s that the JLP tribe holds up as some golden period with so called "growth" ...this was a complete chimera underwritten by massive US assistance to Seaga ...dawg nyam the poor and middle class suppa and the elites pocketed the benefits...which is why the genius Seaga was evicted in 1989. That trickle down Seaga model is NOT sustainable...it too is going nowhere.

We need a new box....fundamental reform of the way wi run di place. That calls for first VISION, and secondly STATESMANSHIP....qualities which currently don't exist in either tribe.

One by one people are waking up to the hopelessness of these 2 tribes and the way our system operates...I hope the reform comes before the insurrection...it nah guh pretty.

In fact, the insurrection has long begun...with 1600 murders/year...Jamaica is in what's called a low grade civil war...a few steps from anarchy.

It's time to circumvent the politicians and business class....bring more people to the decision making table.

Time for respect through a truly national dialogue and consensus building.

[Assasin]

I have no problem with most of what you wrote but these were some of the consideration at the time. Historically one could say they could have done it earlier but those consideration still stands.

[Assasin]

my problem is how we get there. It seems like it is going to take a revolution and dictator as Gamma suggests.

[Historian]

I Suspect Gamma Is Correct!

my problem is how we get there. It seems like it is going to take a revolution and dictator as Gamma suggests.

Now you have touched on the crux of the matter, Assasin! The problems and alternatives outlined above by Don1 are clearly well thought out, and in my mind maybe the only logical way forward for Jamaica right now. But like you asked, How do we get there?

This question touches back on our history and missed opportunities mixed with lack of real vision by those charged with leadership (in both government and and private sector) over the past decades. Can you imagine if Jamaica had started this experiment in the years shortly after independence, or even 30 years ago? The thought of where we would probably have been today in the world arena as a result is mind boggling! Jamaicans often like to make reference to Singapore when our nation’s failure is being lamented, but the fact is that with our human and natural resources, positive and glowing comparisons with Singapore could have been the stuff of Jamaican dining table conversation today!!

[Don1]

This is actually an excellent post!! The problems and alternatives are well stated, and logically so!

The truth is that it’s difficult, right now, to see an alternative to the alternatives and solutions suggested below by the poster, and I’m forced to wonder why on earth couldn’t our leaders have visualized and adopted a similar position?

Thanks! But why qualify the commendation with the word "actually"

[Karl]

that's not a solution...more idiocy awaits.

It is the same the same thing you just said - change the "thought processes"!

We know if the JLP is thrown out it shall be the PNP! ...and you have said, and we all agree, the PNP reign did not prove the success we all crave as they wandered down the path they did.

[Historian]

No Valid Reason

Thanks! But why qualify the commendation with the word "actually"

Point taken, Don1, although when I used the word “actually” I used it to mean “in fact”, or something of the sort .

But that post you made provides a really outstanding discussion of the problems as well as the way forward for Jamaica ! The problem for our leaders now, if they can reach the level of social and political maturity to see things from a similar perspective, is how do they implement such forward-looking solutions at this stage in our evolution when things are so messed up? Will it take a dictator, as Gamma suggested in the past?

[Don1]

Point taken, Don1, although when I used the word “actually” I used it to mean “in fact”, or something of the sort .

But that post you made provides a really outstanding discussion of the problems as well as the way forward for Jamaica ! The problem for our leaders now, if they can reach the level of social and political maturity to see things from a similar perspective, is how do they implement such forward-looking solutions at this stage in our evolution when things are so messed up? Will it take a dictator, as Gamma suggested in the past?

ok..understood.

I used to subscribe to that benevolent dictator theory in years of racking my brain for a solution to the puzzle of Jamaica.

Our history demonstrates that Jamaicans do not respond well to force..our spirit is too rebellious...we are not Asians or Europeans, some of whom respond well to order provided by force. Take Russians & Chinese for example...most of them practically DEMAND a czar/dictator... culturally that works for them.

This is why the Singapore/Lee Kwan Yew type solution is a non starter for Jamaica...we are totally unlike Singaporeans with their Confucian type sensibility of order & collectivity ...that type of approach would bring chaos to Jamaica... in my opinion. Our culture of resistance would not allow it.

All this is why I believe Manley totally dropped the ball on Jamaica...he had all the tools as a member of the elite but with an acute awareness of the extreme & primary need to elevate the disadvantaged for Jamaica to progress.

When he imported the foreign ideology or rather the RHETORIC of an ideology because he was certainly no communist...he lost half or more of the country...the middle could not hold...and things fell apart.

He unfortunately made very bad mistakes...while trying to do necessary things....one step forward & two back.

[Assasin]

Are we just a nation of rebels?

People in Portland complain for years for a bus center. Now they get it the taxi drivers that join the line and wait to be loaded are shafted as touts and crooked cops allow taxis and buses of their friend to be loaded outside the center. Sooner or later everybody will be back on the streets.

I is about us been rebel or the fact that many of us don't believe in the rule of law?