Rasta; Pre 1965 versus post 1990.

[Stonigut]

After watching the documentary posted by Don1 on Selassie's visit in the mid 1960" I couldnt help but notice how strong the Rastafari movement seemed just from the documentary and the outpouring of support and people for the visit, I thought that Rastafari seemed especially strong in the film, much more so than I thought was the case, of course I was born in the mid 60's so I have no real practical on the ground understanding of that period and while in reading various books on the development of Rasta from Howell and pre-Howell days (1930's) Rasta in my mind truly evolved into a new level of consciouness in the 70's , but after seeing this film in it's entirety I am forced to reconsider my preconceived notions on the Rasta movement; the feel and the essence of Rasta in this film is very strong and I search to think of any other time where this strength was captured in film in a spontaneous type of emotional response as we see in this film, that was stronger than this 60's visit and I cannot think of any other time that this may have been the case.

Which leads me to think that, the development of Reggae in the late 60's into early 70"s, even though it acted like a massive accdelerator for Rasta culture in general, that it may in retrospect have been more like a steroid on the development of Rasta culture, with it blossomed to unprecedented heights, it was also stripping away or weakening the very fundamentals of Rasta culture in the process, could it be that it force riped the Rasta fruit and we now see the weak harvest today due to that accelerated maturation of Rasta through, the quick and unparalled success of Reggae; thus the monetary rewards, the praise, the adulation, the wide acceptance, destroyed the very fabric of struggle, of sacrifice, of subsistence living of focus on the faith versus yielding to the temptations of the flesh as brought about by the success of Reggae and bringing the focus away from Spirituality and living in oneness with all.

I fullly agree with Don1's point that the cultural degradation of Jamaica via weak political, business leadership, weak and withering social institutions has led to an infiltration of a base material culture that now rules the Jakan roost and which we cannot seem to shake, nor find the will to challenge.

Anyway, the documentary really opened up my mind on this issue.
I would love to hear from people like Karl and others who experienced the 60's in a more real and practical manner.

[Historian]

Reggae's Success Not Primary Factor

Which leads me to think that, the development of Reggae in the late 60's into early 70"s, even though it acted like a massive accdelerator for Rasta culture in general, that it may in retrospect have been more like a steroid on the development of Rasta culture, with it blossomed to unprecedented heights, it was also stripping away or weakening the very fundamentals of Rasta culture in the process, could it be that it force riped the Rasta fruit and we now see the weak harvest today due to that accelerated maturation of Rasta through, the quick and unparalled success of Reggae;

Interesting perspective, as usual, Stonigut, although I’m inclined to think that we often over-emphasize the cultural objectives when we look at the origins and early development of the Rastarafian movement . We sometimes tend to end up inadvertently downplaying the urgent social and political agenda that formed the basis of the emergence and growth. The social and political struggle was the reason why, from the very first, the brethren aligned themselves with the teachings of a political leader, Marcus Garvey, and emphasized a return to the motherland.

I was only a little boy by the end of the 1960s, so I only vaguely recall things in Jamaican society. I’ll make an input nevertheless.

Reggae’s development had very little to do with any changes in the Rastafarian movement. In the first place, despite appearances to the contrary in the 1970s, the majority of ska, rocksteady and reggae singers and musicians in our history were never Rastafarians in the true sense of the word. Likewise, most Rastafarians were never an integral part of the music industry. (Rastas did not make reggae big; rather, the combination of Bob Marley and Chris Blackwell did.)

Societies and cultures evolve, and so what we have is a natural evolution away from the optimistic Rastafarian movement of the pre-1960s. I could mention the black power movement in the USA and other socio-political and cultural developments elsewhere. We even see this natural evolution in the history of Jamaican music, right to this present era where dancehall has virtually replaced mainstream reggae in popularity. Evolution happens in every society.

One problem seems to be that the Rastafarian movement was never really united, as there were differences between various group leaders in terms of views and objectives. There also was no definite creed for the Rastafarians (there were Rastas who, for example, chose not to work, while others became fine artisans.). Likewise, there were differences between the religious focus, which was all-important to some groups, and the more secular focus, which the groups that emphasized the socio-political struggle were concerned with (leaders like Ferdinand Ricketts and Paul Erlington were more concerned with the political and social aspects).

The primary thing that seemed to link the strictly religious and the more secular focused groups was the Marcus Garvey influenced desire to return to Africa. This, of course, is not to suggest that there were not any other secondary unifying objectives. Authors M.G. Smith, R. Augier and R. Nettleford have documented some of these objectives in their work, The Rastafari Movement in Kingston, Jamaica (1960). For example, all Rastas wanted an end to persecution by the authorities, and so on. But overall the general Rastafarian movement tended to be rather splintered and so never fell under a single, unifying umbrella.

As the decades progressed since the 1960s, blacks increasingly gained economic power and influence, and we see this in today’s Caribbean where the majority of people at the tops of the corporate ladder, the educational ladder, culture decision-makers, and so on, are blacks. Rastafarian movement, which was primarily a socio-political development (a response to the iniquities and inequalities of the pre-independence years), seemed to have served its purpose. Likewise, increased migration and the opening up of new influences have impacted the original focus in Jamaica.

The pace of cultural evolution today, where globalization and its agents of cultural dissemination (the Internet, cable television, etc.) play central roles, have made it increasingly difficult for local cultures to remain unaffected.

[Jawge]

Why don't you do some research before you
start to sound off? Did you know that at the independence celebration, Rasts drummed and the princess made dirogatory comments about them.
Find out about Prrince Busta who incorperated count ossie and his drummers to his new style of beat (which was revived as the carolina riddim).

Bob and Chris Blackwell. Isn't Bob a rastafarian? Rasta had a deep impact on reggae to the point where most of the "conscious" music was because of Rasta outlook and involvement.

Stonigut's premise is food for thought: because it seems that as rasta's influence waned, reggae morhed into dance hall and we have what we have today.

BTW: Culture , burning spear, Steel pulse et al is what?
Right now I play an old Jah love with Briggy toasting on the Heanless/infromer ridddim saying true loooooove mek it hol bald head, jah loooovee.......

Boss getargument straight and stop the speculation.

[Jawge]

In the 70s most of the lyrics had rastafarian undertones: ie. "i don't want to be shut out of zion gate". The talk about majority of the people in the caribbean. I thought the arument was about Rasta's influence on music in Ja. Okay where in Ja is it that blacks are the decison makers in corporate and cultural structure? Also where are the majortiy balcks at the top of the educational chain? IN JAMAICA.

[Historian]

The Danger of Jumping to Conclusions!

Why don't you do some research before you start to sound off? Did you know that at the independence celebration, Rasts drummed and the princess made dirogatory comments about them.
Find out about Prrince Busta who incorperated count ossie and his drummers to his new style of beat (which was revived as the carolina riddim).

Maybe you should read my comment once again. Of course Stonigut’s post is food for thought! In fact, it is a very interesting post, which is why I took the time to respond. Now, for the record, I know much more about Prince Buster and his work than you do, as I actually interviewed him on two separate occasions.

I also know a great deal about the early Rastafarian influence on our culture, including the (pre-independence) work that Leonard Howell did at his Pinnacle commune, where Kumina drumming played an integral role. I know a great deal about Oswald Williams (Count Ossie to you) and the influence of the outstanding Buru drummer Brother Job on his (Count Ossie’s) musical development.

I know about the Rastafarian influence on certain non-Rastafarian Skatalites musicians (Alfonso, Rodriquez and Moore) through the work of Count Ossie. This helped to shape our early music.

I know about the historic teaming of Count Ossie and his drummers with the Folkes Brothers which produced three gems: “Oh Carolina”, “Thirty Pieces of Silver” and “They Got To Go”. I also know about the dispute over authorship of “Oh Carolina” between Prince Buster and John Folkes, a dispute that reached the British courts in the 1970s (Folkes won).

All of this information that I am posting now came straight from my head, with no research whatsoever! You do not know me or the work I’ve done, so please stop believing that I know little about the Rastafarian movement and about Jamaica’s music and culture!!

By the way, I read your comment about Culture and Steel Pulse. Again, I must point out that Joseph Hill, the leader of Culture (I stated this in an early discussion with Gamma a year or so ago) was one of the individuals who taught me my first music chords. I used to si and chat with Hill.

Now, when I say that the majority of ska, rocksteady and reggae performers were NOT Rastafarians, nor did they pretend to be, I am stating a fact! I am also stating a fact that a single Rsatafarian, together with a white, Jamaican-raised music producer, brought reggae to the world, not the Rastafarians in general (who benefitted from this collaboration)!

Why don't you do some research before you
start to sound off? Did you know that at the independence celebration, Rasts drummed and the princess made dirogatory comments about them.
Find out about Prrince Busta who incorperated count ossie and his drummers to his new style of beat (which was revived as the carolina riddim).

Bob and Chris Blackwell. Isn't Bob a rastafarian? Rasta had a deep impact on reggae to the point where most of the "conscious" music was because of Rasta outlook and involvement.

Stonigut's premise is food for thought: because it seems that as rasta's influence waned, reggae morhed into dance hall and we have what we have today.

BTW: Culture , burning spear, Steel pulse et al is what?
Right now I play an old Jah love with Briggy toasting on the Heanless/infromer ridddim saying true loooooove mek it hol bald head, jah loooovee.......

Boss getargument straight and stop the speculation.

[Assasin]

Put it this way, Jamaican music including reggae is more diverse than we think. It is made up of performers from different background and different players etc coming together and doing their thing.

Even many of the Rastas recorded as regular singers before they grew locks. You have many singers who came from the North Course curcuit, downtown, uptown and country and make unique sounds that has sold copies all over. Nuff a the bigtimers are still not rasta.
Reggae is unique. One of the things we often forget is the role of love songs in reggae that is always constant and as big as any culture tune.

By the way I-Man I spent a good year working with Bro Sam Clayton(Mananager and player with Mystic Revelation) who introduced me to many of the Mystic Revelation of Rastafari of Count Ossie was a member of the band. Others who came this way was drummer Bro Royo(don't know his last name) Bongo Herman, and others which I can't even remember.

Up to the 1980s Bro Sam Wife and Mystic still had a library and clubhouse up at (Renoclodge)sp at the foot of Werika Hills.

[Historian]

I Agree

Put it this way, Jamaican music including reggae is more diverse than we think. It is made up of performers from different background and different players etc coming together and doing their thing.

Even many of the Rastas recorded as regular singers before they grew locks. You have many singers who came from the North Course curcuit, downtown, uptown and country and make unique sounds that has sold copies all over. Nuff a the bigtimers are still not rasta.
Reggae is unique. One of the things we often forget is the role of love songs in reggae that is always constant and as big as any culture tune.

I fully agree with you on this, Assasin. By the way, I apologize to you and everyone else for my seemingly arrogant attitude in my reply to Jawge.

In reality I am not an arrogant person by any means, nor do I enjoy verbal conflicts, which is why I almost never make posts on Jamaican political issues (always a potentially explosive subject). However, I was angry at this man for suggesting that I don’t know anything, and that I need to “do some research before (I) sound off”!! It seems that I’ve spent a huge portion of my life reading and researching our history and culture, and so my anger at Jawge’s feisty statement, when he does not even know me, was probably a natural response on my part!!

[Jawge]

The great teacher in the good book , speaks of the parable of the talents. What's the use of interviewing and knowing but not stating it?

If you are to sit here and tell me that Bob and Chris Blackwell alone is responsible for bringing reggae to the world. I can tell you that this is a damn lie. You need to do more interviews and research.

How come Prince Busta neva tell yuh say is him first get count Ossie fi do "oh carolina" riddim. Go back go chat to him.

[Jawge]

and guess what? You still need to do a lot more research. they have a saying;"no man is an island" Maybe you should get some help with your various research project. That would speed things up.

I notice your sllience on blacks being decsion makers in culture and being at the top in education. Did you spend most of your life researchimng this premise too?

[Historian]

Re: Prince Buster and Count Ossie

The great teacher in the good book , speaks of the parable of the talents. What's the use of interviewing and knowing but not stating it?

If you are to sit here and tell me that Bob and Chris Blackwell alone is responsible for bringing reggae to the world. I can tell you that this is a damn lie. You need to do more interviews and research.

How come Prince Busta neva tell yuh say is him first get count Ossie fi do "oh carolina" riddim. Go back go chat to him.

Jawge, boss, this is my final post on this topic, as this is getting a bit ridiculous, and also we run the risk of hijacking Stonigut’s fine thread.

Just because I did not mention that Prince Buster approached Count Ossie does not mean that I (like many other genuine Jamaican music lovers) did not know this!

Here is some more info on that historic move by producer Prince Buster.

First, it was a bold, unpredecented move because middle class people like Prince Buster rarely associated with the Rastafarian drummers. Also, it seems that Count Ossie had to be persuaded to record without a regular band providing rhythm. (Prince Buster apparently wanted just the drums of Count Ossie and his four-man group of drummers, without any guitar, horns or bass etc.)

Duke Reid did a nasty trick in an effort to sabotage Prince Buster and prevent him from going ahead with the recording, but Prince Buster managed to do so using inferior recording facilities. Aside from piano (played by Owen Grey) and Prince Buster’s handclaps, everything else was drums. Mike, John and Eric Folkes did the vocals, and the engineer was Cecil Watts.

[Jawge]

Is whey yuh ah run fah? stan up inna di fiyah man. Nuh worry bout di thread, Stonigut nuh mind cause him deh bout lang enough fi know say wi ah go come back to the original ting. Okay so yuh know bout Prince Busta nd Ossie. Why didn't you state it?

Sarry if di man feel say mi ah diss him lifelong research: I don't want to come off that way becuase it (your reasearch) must means a lot to you.

quick question: When you say bring reggae to the world, are you saying Europe is the world? Feel free to educate and correct where you see fit.

BTW please respond to the argument about blacks being ahead in corporate and cultural decision making, also being on top in education (in JA). Thanks.

[Stonigut]

First things first, I am not sure how you are all doing the shading thing to pull from someone else's post but here is my version; highlighted and in italics. See my responses in blue.

Also must say I really enjoyed the intense banter between Jawge and Historian seemed like it put the "Thrilla in Manila" to shame, I won't say who is Ali and who is Frazier. BDL

Historian Interesting perspective, as usual, Stonigut, although I’m inclined to think that we often over-emphasize the cultural objectives when we look at the origins and early development of the Rastarafian movement .

I really don't think you can over-emphasize that at all, that is the spark, that is the precipitant of a unique and unusal movement, if the people in the Jakan power structure were physically homogenous with the underlying Jamaican classes, Rasta would never have developed, thus the accelerator may very well have been cultural rather than just social and economic, when you hear Garvey or even Mckay talk about ruling class versus underclass or working class the discussion keeps coming around to race/ethnicity which is a crucial subset of culture especially in Ja, you cannot underplay that point in Jamaica that is one variable that is always in play, even on this board all the time. The fundamental point in my mind is that Rasta was the natural response to a Euro based superstructure which them imposed itself on every strata of Jamaican being, Rasta was the counter response to that dominant ideology, an emerged out of the crucible of the Euro/African mix of three hundred years, a Jamaican culture that lifted one ideal over another, all that to say that social and economic were very important but that cultural overlay was the dominant player in creating Rasta.

Historian We sometimes tend to end up inadvertently downplaying the urgent social and political agenda that formed the basis of the emergence and growth. The social and political struggle was the reason why, from the very first, the brethren aligned themselves with the teachings of a political leader, Marcus Garvey, and emphasized a return to the motherland.

Again the return to the motherland theory, remember the return to the motherland theme orginated in the 19th century before Garvey, guys like Russwurm and others, even Bogle, as probably one of the defining calls of the Morant bay Rebvellion was the "cleave to the black call" even though as you say history does focus all the light on the socio-economic aspect as this was a critical precipitant, even guys like Marx jumped in and commented on the socio-economic upheaval in Morant bay as a possible rise of his proletariat class (peasants of Jamaica rise against ruling class yada, yada, yada basically seeing this as proof in reality of his theories)etc., the cuture point highlighted the sense of rejecting the now Euro/Jakan construct in preference for a new cultural construct that was not necessarily very well defined but a strong counter point developed from the continued emergence of a certain Africanist form of ideology, slave rebellions (even Couba, Queen of Kingston is clear evidence of the creation of a counter Afro ideology to the Euro superstructure), Bogle, PanAfricanist/Garvey/Rasta sequence.



Reggae’s development had very little to do with any changes in the Rastafarian movement. In the first place, despite appearances to the contrary in the 1970s, the majority of ska, rocksteady and reggae singers and musicians in our history were never Rastafarians in the true sense of the word. Likewise, most Rastafarians were never an integral part of the music industry. (Rastas did not make reggae big; rather, the combination of Bob Marley and Chris Blackwell did.)

I am super surprised on this point of yours, especially after you recounted your very intimate history growing up with and around some members of the Rasta community. On this point unlike you, I am not looking at who the singers were, I could also make that case to some degree and also understand your point as well, but where I will go with this is what in my mind seemed to be a massive impact on Jakan youth and society in our time and the success of Reggae put Rasta over the top in almost every strata of Jamaica society, which in retrospect is probably where the general movement changed distictly from a pure Afro/roots and culture/black focus to a wider everyman can be a Rasta, uptown/downtown, which widened into any body else, non-jakans etc. Bob Marley and Blackwell were key players in the development of Reggae but lets not forget that Reggae was developing pretty strongly before Marley and Blackwell combi and that Cliff had Reggae hits on Eurocharts before Marley, also if we look at the influence of Rasta drumming on Reggae there is also a strong link there as well, additionally we look at the evidence on the screen and in the Harder they Come, Rasta presence is very strong there as well, so by the time of Rockers, Rasta and reggae was almost one and the same. Another point that surprised me is that at the peak of the classical reggae period the very best of Reggae artists especially the ones who left Jamaica were almost all Rastas, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Bunny Wailer, the rest of Wailers, Dennis Brown, Jacob Miller, Culture, Burning Spear, Gregory Issacs to name a few into the late 70's early 80's with emergence of Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, Aswad etc etc Rasta driven, Rasta and Reggae was almost synonymous at that point.

Good feedback man, love the discussion.

[Stonigut]

Response

First things first, I am not sure how you are all doing the shading thing to pull from someone else's post but here is my version; highlighted and in italics. See my responses in blue.

Also must say I really enjoyed the intense banter between Jawge and Historian seemed like it put the "Thrilla in Manila" to shame, I won't say who is Ali and who is Frazier. BDL

Historian Interesting perspective, as usual, Stonigut, although I’m inclined to think that we often over-emphasize the cultural objectives when we look at the origins and early development of the Rastarafian movement .

I really don't think you can over-emphasize that at all, that is the spark, that is the precipitant of a unique and unusal movement, if the people in the Jakan power structure were physically homogenous with the underlying Jamaican classes, Rasta would never have developed, thus the accelerator may very well have been cultural rather than just social and economic, when you hear Garvey or even Mckay talk about ruling class versus underclass or working class the discussion keeps coming around to race/ethnicity which is a crucial subset of culture especially in Ja, you cannot underplay that point in Jamaica that is one variable that is always in play, even on this board all the time. The fundamental point in my mind is that Rasta was the natural response to a Euro based superstructure which them imposed itself on every strata of Jamaican being, Rasta was the counter response to that dominant ideology, an emerged out of the crucible of the Euro/African mix of three hundred years, a Jamaican culture that lifted one ideal over another, all that to say that social and economic were very important but that cultural overlay was the dominant player in creating Rasta.

Historian We sometimes tend to end up inadvertently downplaying the urgent social and political agenda that formed the basis of the emergence and growth. The social and political struggle was the reason why, from the very first, the brethren aligned themselves with the teachings of a political leader, Marcus Garvey, and emphasized a return to the motherland.

Again the return to the motherland theory, remember the return to the motherland theme orginated in the 19th century before Garvey, guys like Russwurm and others, even Bogle, as probably one of the defining calls of the Morant bay Rebvellion was the "cleave to the black call" even though as you say history does focus all the light on the socio-economic aspect as this was a critical precipitant, even guys like Marx jumped in and commented on the socio-economic upheaval in Morant bay as a possible rise of his proletariat class (peasants of Jamaica rise against ruling class yada, yada, yada basically seeing this as proof in reality of his theories)etc., the cuture point highlighted the sense of rejecting the now Euro/Jakan construct in preference for a new cultural construct that was not necessarily very well defined but a strong counter point developed from the continued emergence of a certain Africanist form of ideology, slave rebellions (even Couba, Queen of Kingston is clear evidence of the creation of a counter Afro ideology to the Euro superstructure), Bogle, PanAfricanist/Garvey/Rasta sequence.



Reggae’s development had very little to do with any changes in the Rastafarian movement. In the first place, despite appearances to the contrary in the 1970s, the majority of ska, rocksteady and reggae singers and musicians in our history were never Rastafarians in the true sense of the word. Likewise, most Rastafarians were never an integral part of the music industry. (Rastas did not make reggae big; rather, the combination of Bob Marley and Chris Blackwell did.)

I am super surprised on this point of yours, especially after you recounted your very intimate history growing up with and around some members of the Rasta community. On this point unlike you, I am not looking at who the singers were, I could also make that case to some degree and also understand your point as well, but where I will go with this is what in my mind seemed to be a massive impact on Jakan youth and society in our time and the success of Reggae put Rasta over the top in almost every strata of Jamaica society, which in retrospect is probably where the general movement changed distictly from a pure Afro/roots and culture/black focus to a wider everyman can be a Rasta, uptown/downtown, which widened into any body else, non-jakans etc. Bob Marley and Blackwell were key players in the development of Reggae but lets not forget that Reggae was developing pretty strongly before Marley and Blackwell combi and that Cliff had Reggae hits on Eurocharts before Marley, also if we look at the influence of Rasta drumming on Reggae there is also a strong link there as well, additionally we look at the evidence on the screen and in the Harder they Come, Rasta presence is very strong there as well, so by the time of Rockers, Rasta and reggae was almost one and the same. Another point that surprised me is that at the peak of the classical reggae period the very best of Reggae artists especially the ones who left Jamaica were almost all Rastas, Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Bunny Wailer, the rest of Wailers, Dennis Brown, Jacob Miller, Culture, Burning Spear, Gregory Issacs to name a few into the late 70's early 80's with emergence of Black Uhuru, Steel Pulse, Aswad etc etc Rasta driven, Rasta and Reggae was almost synonymous at that point.

Good feedback man, love the discussion.

[Stonigut]

Jawge, what exactly did the princess say, I never heard about that, was that Margaret. Your points on Rasta drumming style and reggae hits the nail on the head for me as well. Interestring discussion.

[Jawge]

Yes it was but I didn't get the exact words, maybe Karl could help out there.

yes the discussion is interesting (reminds you of the golden age) but Historian takes things too personal. The guy must lighten up.