Islandman, I'm Taking It Up Here!

[Historian]

Re Cayman, one other sobering fact about thier former close relationship with Jamaica is that a significant number of the local leaders in Cayman were sent to high school in Jamaica, because our school system at the time was far superior to what was available there. Unfortunately there is a very strong anti-Jamaican vibe there among the general Caymanian population these days, even the Jamaicans who have been there for decades and are naturalized are classed as "paper Caymanians". And this is the case even though it is hard to find a black Caymanian who does not have some Jamaican lineage.

I say all that to make the point that our situation is largely of our own making, and in the end no matter how many medals we win or entertainers we produce, if we have a deteriorating economy and society we will not get respect or be able to do a lot to demand it when dealing with political and economic issues.

PS Boycotting the Olympics is not the way to go either.

I fully agree with you! I’ll now add my “two cents” response to your excellent points as a new thread to avoid running the risk of being accused of hijacking someone else’s thread.

Regarding shortsighted suggestions of boycotting the Olympic Games, I recall pointing out, in a response I made to a post sometime ago, the rather obvious facts that (a) the Olympic Games are far more than the sprints (which is the rather limited contribution that Jamaica makes), and (b) that we’d be doing our athletes and their coaches a most unforgiveable disservice by this selfish action! Nobody would benefit by this action!!

I wish there were some way to go further back than the 13 pages of archives that this forum provides, because I would like to pull up my response to that boycotting of the Olympic Games suggestion!

In further supporting your post, Islandman, I want to state for the record that this theme of respect - or rather the loss of respect for us by certain “others” - has been one of my consistent messages on this forum since last year. Several things that I’ve attacked here, including the negative aspects of some of our mass cultural products, has been consistent with my theme of the loss of respect that we’ve gradually brought upon ourselves.

How relevant have my concerns been in this new age? Well, the FIVE consistent themes entrenched in my various postings here on the Reggae Boyz Forum have been:

1. The loss of respect that WE as Jamaicans have caused others to develop towards us and towards our children;

2. The very real harm that dancehall music in particular is causing our nation in terms of how others (even some who enjoy the music) perceive us. In fact, I’ve repeatedly pointed out on this forum, as I’m sure others will recall to their annoyance, the fact that powerful decision makers in some places in the region are looking warily at our dancehall culture and the perceived negative impact on the youth in their various countries. There is a real danger of regional nations slowly closing their doors partially because of negative factors associated with dancehall music, and I recall listing, on at least two occasions, the dancehall artists who have been banned from individual Caribbean states;

3. My desire to see Jamaica remove itself from the present rather useless 15-member CARICOM stranglehold “talk shop” and forge its own way with alternative alliances. This would include withdrawing ourselves from West Indies Cricket (it is not normal for countries to compete in any sport as a region!!) and concentrate on building a Jamaican Cricket Board. I also feel that there is nothing to be gained by continuing to align ourselves with the British Commonwealth, as that grouping serves even less (much less!!) purpose than CARICOM;

4. The importance of introducing Spanish as THE second language (behind Standard English) in all primary and secondary schools in Jamaica, starting immediately! This will better prepare our people to become useful, relevant citizens of an increasingly globalized world.

5. The vital importance of stamping out Jamaica’s image as a marijuana-smoking, marijuana-exporting nation, because there are very few countries in this region or anywhere for that matter that would look with favor on any move by Jamaica to legalize ganja for export!! This would, almost certainly, be the final nail in our large, old coffin!

(I can recall the many heated arguments I’ve had with a number of posters on this forum because of my unrepentant stance against ganja cultivation and export. But I can safely say that, until the day I die, I will never in any way, shape or form support any legalization of marijuana aside from limited legalizion for medicinal purposes.)

There is no single reason for the jaundiced eye that other nations are casting on the people of Jamaica, as there are several interconnected issues here. But things are not likely to change in our lifetime because (a) the Jamaican society is clearly falling apart slowly, (b) our politicians lack the will, the intelligence and the open-mindedness to forge genuine social, political and economic change in our beautiful country, and (c) people who should know better cling to what they hold hard and dear to their hearts, failing to realize that some aspects of our attitude and our choices, etc. have to go!


JAMAICA FIRST!!!

[Gamma]

marijuana aside from limited legalizion for medicinal purposes a step in the right direction......

what i would feel better about is to see people calling for the criminalization of alcohol with the vehemnce with which the decry the decriminalisation of a plant existing in a state of nature

[Lazie]

Historian,

I'm aware you're addressing I-Man, but as usual, Lazie affi butt in.

"The very real harm that dancehall music in particular is causing our nation in terms of how others (even some who enjoy the music) perceive us. In fact, I’ve repeatedly pointed out on this forum, as I’m sure others will recall to their annoyance, the fact that powerful decision makers in some places in the region are looking warily at our dancehall culture and the perceived negative impact on the youth in their various countries. There is a real danger of regional nations slowly closing their doors partially because of negative factors associated with dancehall music, and I recall listing, on at least two occasions, the dancehall artists who have been banned from individual Caribbean states;"

The harm dancehall is causing the nation? Seriously now! You complain about the harm rap music, violent movies, porn movies etc is causing the nation? Have you considered any of the good dancehall has caused the nation? Dancehall music allow the artistes to make money, the producers to make money, the promoters to make money, the sound systems to make money etc.

Wasn't it the same way people turned up their noses at rap music? How much money rap/hiphop is generating per annum?

People turn up their nose at dancehall when its the same dancehall music that allow sound system operators to go all over the world to spin music. Oh .. and if unuh think dem playing only Bob Marley and Peter Tosh all night at these gigs unuh in for a surprise.

Yes, there are issues with dancehall music, how about addressing those issues, such as better lyrical content? By the way I've seen where the broadcasting commission is trying to address that. Why you keep advocating the demise of dancehall music? Just because you don't like dosen't mean that you should take away another man's fun. What kinda boring world would it be if everyone was forced to listen to jazz?

You think these countries really think dancehall is messing up their kids? They're really be dumb? Sorry, I just see it as them just using it as another excuse to keep us out. Why? Because there are those of us who just insist of giving Jamaicans a bad name. Suh, don't blame dancehall Historian, blame those idiotic Jamaicans that is doing an excellent job of making the rest of us look bad.

[Historian]

Point Taken

marijuana aside from limited legalizion for medicinal purposes a step in the right direction......

what i would feel better about is to see people calling for the criminalization of alcohol with the vehemnce with which the decry the decriminalisation of a plant existing in a state of nature

I understand your point, Gamma, and it is indeed a good point. For example, I’ve always felt that a driver under the influence of alcohol is a much more dangerous driver than one who has smoked marijuana!!

However, my preoccupation with marijuana comes from what I see would be the definite consequence of any move to legalize and thus unwittingly turn it into a major export industry. Argue as much as we like, the backlash against Jamaica and every single Jamaican would be such that we would probably think that we’ve been given a free pass to hell.

Do you think doors are closed against us now? Well, my brother, pray that the legalization (which would inevitably make it an export product) does not happen in our lifetime or that of our children! I am 100-percent certain that a specific poster on this forum is going to address my response later today as an alarmist response on my part. People can call my outlook what they wish to call it, but the reality is that there are many more Grand Caymans and Great Britains out there that are just waiting for an opportunity and an excuse to address certain issues they have with Jamaicans.

[Historian]

No Problem At All, Lazie

Historian,

I'm aware you're addressing I-Man, but as usual, Lazie affi butt in.

Lazie, although Islandman’s name was specifically mentioned, your own response is certainly most welcome!! In fact, after posting at the start of the thread, I had second thoughts about mentioning Islandman specifically in the subject line, as I suspected it might causse some posters to hesitate in making a response.

But please feel completely free to reply to ALL of my posts, Lazie. I read your various posts, and so I can assure you that, aside from this dancehall issue, I honestly cannot think of any other topic on which you or I disagree. Certainly I share your political views 100-percent!!

I’ll try and respond soon to your most welcome dancehall comments. I would have liked to do so now, but I can’t in any depth as I have an urgent errand to run now.

[Assasin]

While the Dancehall "dirty music" is bad influence, you can't separate it from other forms of entertainment which includes American films, Rap music, and others.

The link between entertainment is not limited to dancehall as so many Dons can be linked to producing and promoting. It is just within the last 5 years the US Feds have played a role in clamping down many of these producers from CT, to FL, NY to JA as they directly targeted them.

Is it surprising that many of the badmen DJ them have names like Josey Wales, lee Van Cliff, Ninja Man, Bouty Killer, etc. This is evidence of the influence of the American and other Entertainment connection.

[Islandman]

Re your five themes, I agree with some, but have a different take on others.

Lets start with the good old weed....my only issue with this is that a law that makes a natural plant "illegal" across the board just makes no sense to me. Growing for export, commercial cultivation, etc , well thats a bigger issue, clearly there are effects associated with the use of marijuana, and I have no problems with laws dealing with that. But for a plant which happens to be growing in my yard to somehow make me gulity of a crime, something is just wrong with that. But thats not particularly a Jamaica issue for me and I understand the political reasons for not wanting to make it legal in any way because of the message it sends.

Re CARICOM, I am not particularly impressed with the organization and its achievments and in its present form it has no real impact. But is abandoning CARICOM it and WI cricket (and presumably our affiliation witn UWI as well) really the statement we want to be sending to our Caribbean neighbours? Maybe that is what the majority of Jamaicans would want, and if so, well so be it, but I have never been convinced that cutting all ties, symbolic or otherwise, with the rest of the English speaking Caribbean would be a net positive for us. But I could be wrong, its just a gut feeling.

I generally agree with the negative impact of the worst forms of our dancehall culture . However the culture as a whole is not going anywhere so our only hope is to find a way to improve its image over time. I think the music ultimately reflects the street culture although in the short to medium term they reinforce each other.

Teaching Spanish is fine but first we have to resolve our larger language problem with many children struggling to learn in standard English! I am not one of those who thinks the solution is to make patois the language of education in our schools but after many discussions including some on this forum, I now believe that there are many communities in JA where the children really should be (and in some cases are already) treated as if English is not thier first language, but thier second. Makes little sense to teach these kids Spanish until they reach a certain level of competence with standard English.

All in all our problem is that we have a low level of respect for law and order. From the uptown doctor who pays little to no income tax but complains about the state of the roads and hospitals, to the small man who thinks his greatest achivement in life is that he can beat the gate and get into any event free, we just do not have much commitment to an organized, disciplined society.

[Gamma]

historian there is one minor point what it, it is decriminalised in say canada, the uk and several states in the US first...what then? or even to export it to amsterdam?

i ask this not in isoaltion but in recognition of the fact the the decriminalisation movement has resurged with some minoe successes e.g. prescription marijuana