Fix GSAT soon! - Education minister says GSAT causes two-Jam

[Assasin]

I don't think it is the same thing because as I said a lot of ghetto kids are in these traditional high schools. People don't talk about that. The thing is these school take the brightest of the brightest.

I know many parents inna the ghetto work hard fi send them kids a good school. Some of my cousins got in because they were bright. The thing with affirmative action is even if you bright you can't get in.

Totally different thing in my book. If it was fi money I couldn't get inna Titchfield.

[Mosiah]

True Assasin, but the chances of the ghetto youth doing well enough to get into the better schools are slim, what with ducking bullets and dealing with loud music and other distractions on a daily basis. Plus, there isn't a culture of success in these areas.

[Islandman]

I think you still in the Common Entrance era and not the GSAT era.

GSAT preparation mek Common Entrance look like joke business. Simply put, you are at a MAJOR disadvantage if you come from a low income background. Common Entrance was already bad in this regard, GSAT is many times worse in my view.

[Assasin]

"I think you still in the Common Entrance era and not the GSAT era."

You maybe right.

As Mo say it is more the culture of "lack of success" and encouragement is the problem. That is why teachers have to be leaders. I remember there were a few "man teachers" in my days and without a doubt they were role model at the primary school level. Truth be told there were some kids who rather staying at school than going home.

[Mosiah]

Sass is right. If you do well, no matter where yuh come from, you can be placed in the best high schools! Look at how a likkle dry foot bwoy from Crawl (sic) end up at the other CC, Campion College!

[Islandman]

I know a few like that too. For too many kids that is the only father figure in thier life.

Just to be clear though Sass, there will always be some who are bright enough to get ahead regardless of thier environment, but they should not be used as the measuring stick.

[Karl]

Its not about good or not good, most kids who want to go to good colleges have good grades. Its about wether you got in ahead of someone else with BETTER grades because you are from a disadvantaged group.

Similarly what the minister has said is that there are kids who have good grades but are not getting into certain schools because there are other kids with better grades. I have no doubt that a high proportion of the kids with the best grades are middle class and upper class kids. That is what the minister is talking about when he says it reinforces the 2 Jamaicas.

It is the same concept but it affects you differently so you are trying to find a way to make it different. Why not just say that the US just needs to fix the not-so-good colleges and we would not need affrirmative action then? Because you know as well as I do that college tradition and prestige counts for a lot . Same thing for our high schools.

It’s not about good or not good, most kids who want to go to good colleges have good grades. Its about wether you got in ahead of someone else with BETTER grades because you are from a disadvantaged group.

Similarly what the minister has said is that there are kids who have good grades but are not getting into certain schools because there are other kids with better grades. I have no doubt that a high proportion of the kids with the best grades are middle class and upper class kids. That is what the minister is talking about when he says it reinforces the 2 Jamaicas.

It is the same concept but it affects you differently so you are trying to find a way to make it different. Why not just say that the US just needs to fix the not-so-good colleges and we would not need affrirmative action then? Because you know as well as I do that college tradition and prestige counts for a lot . Same thing for our high schools.

...but you cannot rule out the reality that in the US you may have the grades but be denied entry because you are in the non-white minority! ...and that being in a member of that minority was used to deny students with good grades entrance/allowing whites with lesser grades preference.

Affirmative action was to correct that 'imbalance'. That blatantly racist slant.

Never forget that in the US the tax dollars were...still are disproportionately spent on schools and institutions in pre-dominantly white areas. In effect 'poor performing schools' were deliberately made so by underfunding, understaffing and other means. Little or no effort at creating 'good teaching/learning' institutions...non-white minorities attending such 'created' poor performing schools made for deliberate low grades being achieved by those who attended those schools.

Again - Affirmative action recognizes the ability of all the kids to on a level playing field perform be able to perform...and to give access to the avenue to being in the game to some of the non-white minority kids. The result show talent was not the problem the non-white minorities had, it was lack of access to quality learning environment.

In Jamaica, if it still holds true that the schools are allowed discretionary powers to admit a certain %age of students, the kids can attend any school if the parents have the funds to support the choice. No such thing held for good many number of years in the US. It was...and to a large degree still is if you are in the non-white minority, ‘stand back’!

[Time]

Jamaican Affrimative Action...

I wonder how many of us who support affrimative action type programs in the US , would support some kind adjustment to GSAT, ie where some youths from the disavantaged areas with lower GSAT scores are given a choice to go to the better schools ahead of some middle class youths with higher scores?

I can hear it already. "Well no that is different because......" Heh heh.

I see where you are going but I can tell you that would never happen at Wolmers in the next 100 years. The other problem is that Wolmer's will kick out those who fail to maintain the academic and behavior standards.

Jamaica already have a unique type of Jamican Affrimative Action... where the poor man pickney can get into the top schools (Wolmers, KC, Campion etc) but it requires high grades instead of the low grade based US Affirmative Action.

[Peter R]

Karl,

Are schools in your area (or America in general) largely funded by property taxes? If so, that explains the phenomenon in America of schools in poor neighbourhoods being underfunded compared to their counterpart school in a wealthy neighbourhood.

Now in Jamaica I believe that schools are funded primarily by govt allocation of tax dollars and not by property tax. Therefore the govt. does have a huge say in where, how and why money should be spent on a school in any given area.

In JA if Portmore say, has X number of residents, ther should be Y number of schools to accommodate them and to hell with GSAT or any such high stakes exam. In a GSAT environment or whatever they call common entrance, richer kids will ALWAYS do better (generally) because, first, their parents first worry is no longer putting food on the table or affording a good shelter; second the parents have more disposable income that they spend on lessons prepping their kids for the exams to get into the better schools. The system is heavily weighted against the poorer kid, simply because he/she is poor.

The concept of a "first choice" school should be ABOLISHED! ALL schools, particulary HIGH SCHOOLS, should be created equal and therefore there should be no need for a GSAT exam. There is nothing wrong with the Canadian or the American model (generally) but we insist in these parts on measuring students achievements on one basis only ..i.e. exams. I can with MANY examples point to individuals who have excelled in their exams and are complete dunces when it comes to applying all that knowledge they have in their head.

The Jamaica govt. should desist as was said from perpetuating with tax payers dollars the two tier system of "good" schools and "not so good" schools. If middle class or upper class people do not wish their kids in a neighbourhood school, then they can always send them to a private school. However, doing away with this system would require perseverance, vision, and a whole lot of guts from the incumbent govt., one that would be willing to risk loss of votes for the greater good of the country and populace...howoever, i won't hold my breath.

Trust me, I have a lot to say on this matter as I am directly involved in education...but I will stop there.

[Assasin]

The schools in Karl neighbourhood also have active parent teacher's associations.

One went to a relative workplace a ask fi help replace a stolen CD in the coach's car. While the ones who need books not begging anything.

[Sickko]

True Mosiah, they seem to come out with this every year this time, I have been hearing about this since Common Entrance...

Still I would love to see what they have to replace this kind of placement, what are they going to use a lottery?

[Karl]

Karl,

Are schools in your area (or America in general) largely funded by property taxes? If so, that explains the phenomenon in America of schools in poor neighbourhoods being underfunded compared to their counterpart school in a wealthy neighbourhood.

Now in Jamaica I believe that schools are funded primarily by govt allocation of tax dollars and not by property tax. Therefore the govt. does have a huge say in where, how and why money should be spent on a school in any given area.

In JA if Portmore say, has X number of residents, ther should be Y number of schools to accommodate them and to hell with GSAT or any such high stakes exam. In a GSAT environment or whatever they call common entrance, richer kids will ALWAYS do better (generally) because, first, their parents first worry is no longer putting food on the table or affording a good shelter; second the parents have more disposable income that they spend on lessons prepping their kids for the exams to get into the better schools. The system is heavily weighted against the poorer kid, simply because he/she is poor.

The concept of a "first choice" school should be ABOLISHED! ALL schools, particulary HIGH SCHOOLS, should be created equal and therefore there should be no need for a GSAT exam. There is nothing wrong with the Canadian or the American model (generally) but we insist in these parts on measuring students achievements on one basis only ..i.e. exams. I can with MANY examples point to individuals who have excelled in their exams and are complete dunces when it comes to applying all that knowledge they have in their head.

The Jamaica govt. should desist as was said from perpetuating with tax payers dollars the two tier system of "good" schools and "not so good" schools. If middle class or upper class people do not wish their kids in a neighbourhood school, then they can always send them to a private school. However, doing away with this system would require perseverance, vision, and a whole lot of guts from the incumbent govt., one that would be willing to risk loss of votes for the greater good of the country and populace...howoever, i won't hold my breath.

Trust me, I have a lot to say on this matter as I am directly involved in education...but I will stop there.

Good chat, sah!
...so I'll address only two things:

i)

Are schools in your area (or America in general) largely funded by property taxes? If so, that explains the phenomenon in America of schools in poor neighbourhoods being underfunded compared to their counterpart school in a wealthy neighbourhood.

We tend to concentrate on that "local" property taxes funding "local" schools and a) forget that large blocks of State and Federal dollars are there to supplement (add value?). How those State and Federal dollars are requested, voted on and used (lead by the School Boards, and other authorised parties, etc.) go a far way in deciding "good" or "bad" school districts and schools. E.g. Some school boards in minority areas do not apply for the funds...or maximise on those applications and some school boards spend disproportionate sums of funds received to go on "administators education 'jaunts" as opposed to others where there are "good" schools increasing amounts sent on educating the kids - improment of physical structures, new education programs, upgrading equipment (e.g. science labs, computer equipment, teacher seminars for upgrading teaching skills, etc.).

ii) Have to give an encore

The concept of a "first choice" school should be ABOLISHED! ALL schools, particulary HIGH SCHOOLS, should be created equal and therefore there should be no need for a GSAT exam.

Yup! ALL schools, particulary HIGH SCHOOLS (although my personal preference is all schools - from the cradle to grave schools. From the child enters his first school through to last, all should be great.) should be created equal - equally TOP OF THE WORLD good!

Yes, boss! Yuh deh pon pint!