Jamaica vs Trini Cultural expression 2

[Sensi]

This is indeed an interesting topic which I believe is worthy of further discussion because it is always great to see things(the Caribbean) from different perspectives. My take is a little different from what was said below, In fact I believe that the whole Caribbean is on the verge of being taken over by Jamaican culture and has been in the making for a while. Dancehall is certainly leading this take over as it is a fresh phenomena in comparison to calypso which has been around for ages and its offspring Soca. The younger generation throughout the caribbean is a Dancehall generation which gravitate to Reggae and Dancehall more than Soca. You see this in their fashion, attitude, slangs and the numbers in which they turn up at dancehall shows, and their knowledge of dancehall from the artists to the lyrics.

Even Soca as it is today is heavily influenced by Dancehall, and this is obviously evident in the artists and their lyrics who look and sound more like they are from Yard than anything else. One of the biggest soca artist ever Kevin Little, is still believed by many to be a Jamaican and in fact his dancehall appeal may have fueled his success. Carnivals are huge of course but they are usually one time events, while dancehall gets into the fiber of the society and is an everyday thing...it is not an event, it is life. Furthermore, Dancehall has waaay more superstars than Soca and Dancehall happenings are usually the current topic of discussions for Caribbean youths males and females. They all want to do the dances, dress the part and have the Yardman profile down pat to a T! The last time I checked, there was not one yardman trying to look, sound or do anything Trini.
Just recently during the Olympics after the 100m final, my wife's brother-in-law called us up in jubilation and screaming on the phone because Trinidad won the silver medal. He was elated and in celebration mode because he said they beat Asafa Powell, so I said to him "Bredrin who won the race and from which country?" He started stuttering unusually and then one big argument ensued about which country better and who better at what. He started talking about Trini carnival how it is the best and soca is the best, and this time I said to him "My youth, what kind a music yuh have inna yuh car?" The argument done immediately! He started laughing and saying "you got me, you got me!" Finally massive, the next time Kenwyn Jones score a goal fo Sunderland unnu look good pon him celebration and mek mi know which part a T&T dem Dance deh created!

[Gamma]

don't forget...nyamdirt likes to hang out over here....

[Historian]

Sensi, My Response!

This is indeed an interesting topic which I believe is worthy of further discussion because it is always great to see things(the Caribbean) from different perspectives. My take is a little different from what was said below, In fact I believe that the whole Caribbean is on the verge of being taken over by Jamaican culture and has been in the making for a while.

Sensi: Your “seeing the Caribbean from different perspectives” has not shown any different perspectives! What you have done, instead, is to promulgate the usual and rather tiresome “Jamaica is culturally superior” argument. This response, I can assure you, certainly has nothing to do with my original post which started this discussion. This response of yours, also, is in my opinion the type of attitude having at its root the primary reason for the failure of the original Caribbean integration effort, an effort which historically can be placed in the period 1958-1962.

This takeover (“taken over”) “of the Caribbean culture” that you boast about, and which Jamaica’s rubbish newspaper, The Star, likes to sing equally loudly about, might come at a very steep price, if ever it happens! In fact, I can tell you right now that the backlash, in the form of renewed efforts at re-energizing their native cultures, has already started to take place in a number of regional countries! It is probably a bit belated, but this re-energizing of native forms of expression has already started to take place in regional islands from the Bahamas in the north to Trinidad & Tobago in the south!

In case you have not been keeping up with news from the Caribbean, reactions throughout several Caribbean countries has been rather hostile to dancehall. This has included outright banning of specific dancehall artists by the governments of Guyana (Bounty Killer and Movado, April 2008), St Vincent (Movado in January 2008), the Bahamas (Movado in 2008), the British Virgin Islands (Tony Matterhorn, December 2006), and the effort at getting a ban on Movado in Dominica (June 2008). Even worse, there have been the “we don’t fear (respect?) you Jamaicans” statements, as can be seen in the armed robbery and vicious assault on several performers, including Movado (in Barbados at the “Time Out At The Gap Hotel,” July 2007), Chuck Fender (the Bahamas, August 2007), and Craig “Serani” Marsh (January 2009 in the US Virgin Islands).

You mentioned that “dancehall … is a fresh phenomena (sic) in comparison to calypso which has been around for ages and its offspring calypso.” While reggae, whose offspring is dancehall, has not been around for ages, it has been around from the late sixties; that is, some forty-plus years. I’m not certain how “fresh” dancehall is when compared with soca!! In fact, soca’s biggest hit to date, the Montserrat-born singer Arrow’s “Hot, Hot, Hot” (becoming a hit after America’s Dexter Poindexter recorded his watered-down version), was recorded in the 1980s. Does that sound like “ages” to you?

The fact is that soca (soul-calypso) is not very old!

Your feeling that “the whole Caribbean is on the verge of being taken over by Jamaican culture” has absolutely no basis in reality!!! I can assure you of this! In fact, while dancehall and rap are the only genres you’re likely to hear in car sound systems around the entire region, soca has been quietly making inroads. Of course, very often dancehall artists have been summoned to give a helping hand, as in Kevin Little’s hit which you mentioned (although you failed to include dancehall’s Spragga Benz’s contribution), and this is a rather obvious effort by soca to use reggae/dancehall’s established international appeal as a stepping stone to success.

I have to go out now on a job-related matter (really I have to), but I hope that I can continue this debate tomorrow!

[Me]

In case you have not been keeping up with news from the Caribbean, reactions throughout several Caribbean countries has been rather hostile to dancehall. This has included outright banning of specific dancehall artists by the governments of Guyana (Bounty Killer and Movado, April 2008), St Vincent (Movado in January 2008), the Bahamas (Movado in 2008), the British Virgin Islands (Tony Matterhorn, December 2006), and the effort at getting a ban on Movado in Dominica (June 2008). Even worse, there have been the “we don’t fear (respect?) you Jamaicans” statements, as can be seen in the armed robbery and vicious assault on several performers, including Movado (in Barbados at the “Time Out At The Gap Hotel,” July 2007), Chuck Fender (the Bahamas, August 2007), and Craig “Serani” Marsh (January 2009 in the US Virgin Islands).


Your feeling that “the whole Caribbean is on the verge of being taken over by Jamaican culture” has absolutely no basis in reality!!! I can assure you of this! In fact, while dancehall and rap are the only genres you’re likely to hear in car sound systems around the entire region, soca has been quietly making inroads. Of course, very often dancehall artists have been summoned to give a helping hand, as in Kevin Little’s hit which you mentioned (although you failed to include dancehall’s Spragga Benz’s contribution), and this is a rather obvious effort by soca to use reggae/dancehall’s established international appeal as a stepping stone to success.

Why do you think they need to ban the artist. Because there is a DEMAND for their music from the people in the country, especially the young people. You see the turnout for these acts when they go abroad and how the people in the other islands can sing the whole tune. Trini youngsters dem don't even listen to that much soca outside of carnival. The young people station plays alot of reggae music.

The accent that the other island youngsters imitate is Jamaican. The music that they are trying to sound more like is Jamaican. You go to parties in Hartford, New York, Washington dc, Florida and the dominant music among the caribbean youngsters in dancehall. Go to the shows of the dancehall acts and half of the people are from other Caribbean Nations.

It is quite clear what the dominant and more influencing culture is. Just because the elders/institutions are trying to prevent it doesn't mean it is not happening.

Just the other day I was reading where trini youngsters were debating about the reason why dancehall's influence has grown so much in their country (even during carnival) and why soca isn't as strong outside of its season.

With that said, I don't think soca is going anywhere and it has the potential to explode internationally because of the melody associated with the music and the clarity of many of the songs.

[Peter R]

It really is pointless as Exile and others point out to be going on over "who taking over who" etc. it's okay for some friendly trash talk but we really shouldn't take ourselves too seriously when we discuss which music is better etc. AT the end of the day's it's quite subjective.

The fact though is that reggae & dancehall have made huge inroads into T&T airwaves...HUGE; you really only hear soca and calypso at carnival time...and the traditional calypso that comments on social happenings is slowly dying an disappearing. The carnival "tents" where the traditional calypsonians perform have seen attendance dwindle year over year. There are those who want to push soca to be a world music like reggae, and it could be, but I guarantee that it won't be a Trini who will do it, if it happens.

Kevin Lyttle's big hit of 7(?) years back ("Turn me on" I believe, didn't even sound like soca, it was more soul or just plain pop, with a tinge of a soca beat...but it was massively popular here in the fetes. A song like that was great for crossover, but nothing has hit the airwaves outside of the islands on that scale. Some outsider will take the beat and mash it up; Trini soca artistes make a few songs for carnival and then go on the carnival circuit/ Bajans the same...(btw I think their soca is leading edge, more so than T&T), so essentially you hear the same 10-20 songs til next season...unsustainable if the music is to grow.

[Mosiah]

Kevin Lyttle's song is not soca. Argument done!

The best soca songs in the last 30 years are:

1. Tiney Winey
2. Some song by David Rudder
3. Roll It Gyal

Look at dat! Only one of the 3 is from a Trini!

[Assasin]

you right little song is not Soca. He maybe a soca artist but it is Reggae(dancehall).

Bunjy Garling who is one a di biggest inna Soca, where did his voice immitation come from? That goes to show the influence of Reggae, when nuff a the soca artist them a copy the DJ dancehall voice.

[Mosiah]

What is happening is soca is moving towards dancehall/reggae, not the other way around.

[Lazie]

Kevin Lyttle's song is not soca. Argument done!

The best soca songs in the last 30 years are:

1. Tiney Winey
2. Some song by David Rudder
3. Roll It Gyal

Look at dat! Only one of the 3 is from a Trini!

Suh what category would Kevin's song fall under?

[Mosiah]

It's closer to reggae more than anything else. It really is just a weird, but good, Bajan beat.

[Naminirt]

You maybe heard the song after the remix with spragga

[Islandman]

I agree. It is a crossover song with predominantly reggae flavor.

It is more reggae/dancehall than many of Shaggys songs.

[Assasin]

It not closer to reggae, it is Reggae

[Mosiah]

Shaggy? Straight R&B in many cases!

[Lazie]

It's closer to reggae more than anything else. It really is just a weird, but good, Bajan beat.

Suh Mr. Vegas' "Tek Whey Yuhself" is what then? I'll agree that Kevin did something different that caused his song to have an international appeal, but that song is a soca song in my (CD) book.