Exile - Discussion: The Manley Years

[Don1]

they are former communists because they drive audis...yuh get MY point?

Maybe the reverse... they drive Audis because they are ex communists

[Assasin]

you ever see me berating Cuba? I think their education system and healthcare is great. I believe in universal healthcare and education. it is done in most capitalist country in the world. only in the US healthcare is not free and cost so much. you don't have to look to Cuba only. It is free in Canada, Britain and many other places with good quality as well. I have alway believe in eating our own product but Jamaica has to learn what productivity is in order to produce at a competitive rate. Check the 1970s and see the productivity rate. i bet you won't respond to that.

i am all about productive policies and economics. Not about the politics you think i should be caught up in.

i guess you and other forget about the boat full a gun them find off the course of jamaica that was to shoot bird. As i said both jlp and pnp supported the foolishness so no act like it was all proproganda in the media.

[Historian]

Answer The Question!

the real communist nuh want Audis, no wonder them a "former"

You think most a them coulda live communist lives? where their pockets are not deeply rewarded for their education and skills?

I think you miss my point.

No, Don1, Assasin did NOT miss your point!! Let me ask you this question, and I look forward with some eagerness to your answer: Where are Manley advisers today, “experts” like Dr. Norman Girvan, Dr. Don Robotham and Dr. Derek Gordon (among others)? These are some of the architects of the great socio-economic experiment of the 1970s! I notice that Dr. Robotham’s newspaper articles last year, all of which I read, tended to sound so much different, in fact radically different (pardon the pun) than his 1970s posturing! Care to guess why?

But enough of that. Just answer the question as to the whereabouts of people like Robotham and Girvan, then you will be in a better position to discuss Assasin’s comment that “You think most a them coulda live communist lives? where their pockets are not deeply rewarded for their education and skills?”

At least Dr. Omar Davies had the guts to stay for the long ride!

[Historian]

Odd comments coming from you. Education and healthcare couldn't be free was precisely what the JLP said in the 70's. The minister of agriculture calls for consumption of local staples(cassava etc,) and berates the merchants for ripping off consumers and the local business class does not respond with hoarding . The prime minister goes to cuba and praises the accomplishments of cuba and no one assumes he is infected with the communist bug. The stated policies of the JLP seem to be a carbon copy of the "communist" PNP of the 70's yet the local business class dont seem worried. Please explain.

Explain this, Rudi, how can a poor Third World country like Jamaica support the practice of free education and free health care? And for your information, the Cuban health care culture, with its outdated technology and often-questioned medical approach and results, is vastly overrated! Sure, it is commendable that ordinary Cubans have access to free health care facilities, but the standards are no way comparable with those of the so-called developed world!

Enough of this Cuba-biased sentimentality! (And yes, I read the public relations piece from the Cuban embassy that was published in our local newspapers recently.)

[Assasin]

Davis stayed but the capital market was his main source of funding, not to generate it from production and develope jamaican wealth.

[Assasin]

Historian, i think most countries in the world have free healthcare for majority of its citizen and in most countries primary and high school children do not pay. IF we want to get the best talent it is the scarifice we have to make to have free education, even if we have to tax tourist for it.

[Don1]

Explain this, Rudi, how can a poor Third World country like Jamaica support the practice of free education and free health care? And for your information, the Cuban health care culture, with its outdated technology and often-questioned medical approach and results, is vastly overrated! Sure, it is commendable that ordinary Cubans have access to free health care facilities, but the standards are no way comparable with those of the so-called developed world!

Enough of this Cuba-biased sentimentality! (And yes, I read the public relations piece from the Cuban embassy that was published in our local newspapers recently.)

A lot is broken in Cuba.... health care is not among the lot.

Cutting edge technology (which Cuba has in bio tech) does not necessarily equate to effective and readily available care. This is an American inspired fallacy.



The proof of the pudding is in the eating. One just has to look at statistics to see if Cubans have good health care.


Infant Mortality.... among the lowest in the world... superior to the US

Longevity ..... among the highest in the world.... equal/superior to the US

Incidence of communicable diseases... among the lowest in the world
Ratio of doctors/dentists to population.... highest worldwide


It is incontrovertible that Cuba has an extremely effective health care system.... to the extent that they export huge numbers of health professionals throughout the Caribbean, Latin America and Africa... and also train large numbers of foreign health professionals.


That's one area of Cuban life the US embargo has been unable to diminish effectively.




Care to see for yourself?


http://www.longwoods.com/product.php?productid=19916

[Don1]

No, Don1, Assasin did NOT miss your point!! Let me ask you this question, and I look forward with some eagerness to your answer: Where are Manley advisers today, “experts” like Dr. Norman Girvan, Dr. Don Robotham and Dr. Derek Gordon (among others)? These are some of the architects of the great socio-economic experiment of the 1970s! I notice that Dr. Robotham’s newspaper articles last year, all of which I read, tended to sound so much different, in fact radically different (pardon the pun) than his 1970s posturing! Care to guess why?

But enough of that. Just answer the question as to the whereabouts of people like Robotham and Girvan, then you will be in a better position to discuss Assasin’s comment that “You think most a them coulda live communist lives? where their pockets are not deeply rewarded for their education and skills?”

At least Dr. Omar Davies had the guts to stay for the long ride!

I think you too miss my point.


My point was sarcasm... which is a big pastime of mine.


As to those individuals you mention.... I don't know how many of them were communist.... maybe Robotham as he was in the politburo of the WPJ.

The others I recall as academics, supportive of leftist/progressive politics and economics.... of course I could be wrong as I don't know them personally... except for Girvan.

I never saw Davies as a communist... the fact that he hung around means that he enjoys public service or sees some advantage in it.



Sarcasm aside, when one looks at politics.... capitalist, communist, socialist, monarchy or otherwise..... the leadership elite ALWAYS lives well... including access to fancy cars/houses and nice perks.

Russia, China, Cuba, US, North Korea, Canada .. it doesn't matter.

Consequently I don't get too excited about the matter of cars or fancy toys... it's the way of the world for elites to live high on the hog.

[Gamma]

i see it differently...btw yuh seriously include canada?

anyway, when the people who encouraged a man to all out capitalist just because a man drive a "big car"...give up dem lada.....i tend not to be as matter of fact about it

[Mosiah]

And for your information, the Cuban health care culture, with its outdated technology and often-questioned medical approach and results, is vastly overrated! Sure, it is commendable that ordinary Cubans have access to free health care facilities, but the standards are no way comparable with those of the so-called developed world!

Really?!? Yes, I guess the chairs in the waiting room are more comfortable in Great Neck, NY. And there is a fresh coat of paint on the walls.

[Assasin]

Don1 I expect better from you. While your argument maybe true but this one source will prove everything?

Cuba has a good healthcare system but it is not as modern as many other countries.

[Mosiah]

What does "modern" mean here? My dentist's dental chair has a flat screen monitor, amongst other state of the art equipment. Did that make me more comfortable when he was about to perform a root canal?

[Assasin]

that is not what modern means.
I went to a friend of mine office recently and the technology he had was amazing. this is a top cardiologist in the NY area and he had a system where had to write nothing, Test were all completed using the aid of a computerized system.

The fact is at the top level(which is not always filterd down) there are some amazing technology in America. The only problem is not everybody can afford it. When it comes to technology in Medicine America is ahead but it is not always filtered through but I can imagine all the various machine used for stuff like heart surgery may not be in cuba.

I don't know much about dentistry and technology, I have never seen it.

[Mosiah]

I think we are both talking from a position of ignorance. I couldn't care less how much razzmatazz my doctor has. If he can't fix the problem, then...

I don't know really what America has to offer. And I don't know what Cuba has and does not have.

All I am going off is the fact that many people from around the world go to Cuba for treatment of all types of illnesses, including, just recently, Prime Minister Manning of T&T, who has been going there for years. I guess, unlike Jamaica's ministers, T&T's ministers do not have US health insurance! It could be a cost factor for him and for others who go there.

And I look at the numbers for their longevity and infant mortality.

[Assasin]

As mi say Cuban healthcare system must be credited and it is FREE.

Too many people in America think a free healthcare system is always bad and it is a communist system. Most Jamaicans who travel to America somehow get brainwashed.

We have to realise that free healthcare is the norm for most capitalist countries as well and they have decent system in place. The technology is in America but is it widespread? and how expensive is it?

I have nothing against Cuba's or anybody else free healthcare system. Americans usually laugh at the Cuban, British, Canadian healthcare system but they don't end up bancrupt because of it and companies don't go under because they can't foot healthcare coverage.