historian in keeping with

[Gamma]

the music theme i see that ernest wilson di a remake of "let true love be" with a more up tempo reggae beat..but to be honest the original is such a masterclass that it does it a great disservice...the harold buler arrangent and keyboard on the original is just such a masterpiece...

[Gamma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TbDHOYooA

just listen

[Historian]

Re: historian in keeping with

the music theme i see that ernest wilson di a remake of "let true love be" with a more up tempo reggae beat..but to be honest the original is such a masterclass that it does it a great disservice...the harold buler arrangent and keyboard on the original is just such a masterpiece...

Gamma, I know the original version of that Ernest Wilson recording, but I have not heard the reggae version. Ernest is a very good singer, though (the maestro Harold Butler, a Jamaican genuis in my opinion, used to choose vocalists on his recordings very carefully).

In your post above, you touched on the key to the difference between the Harold Butler version and the reggae version (I’ve highlighted this key difference in red). The fact is that the harmonic movement of a song is an important foundation for the singer. Of course, while a one-chord arrangement has worked once or twice in the past (Half Pint’s “Greetings I Bring From Jah” is a perfect example of a classic song with little or no chord movement), the bottom line is that there is so much more that a good singer can do with his/her vocals with a song that involves sensitive arrangements.

But let me now try and expand on this matter that you raised.

Yesterday evening I was listening to George Benson’s “Greatest Love of All,” and as usual I reflected on the beauty of the arrangement. To explain a bit more what I mean, if you listen to this recording (or Whitney Houston’s version) you will find that the composer (or arranger) has his chords constantly moving all around throughout the song.

Let’s use the key of Bb, for example, to illustrate more what I mean here. Using this Bb key, the first line of the song has the 5th note of the chord moving upwards in half steps (F, F#, G, G#) with the result that the chord movement is a rather beautiful sounding Bb, Bbaug5, Bb6, Bb7.

The second line then continues this progression, but instead of going to the 7th chord, returns from the 6th back to the 5th (Bb, B, C, B), thus giving us the chord progression Eb, Ebaug5, Eb6, Ebaug5. Then the third line of the song changes this by going to the 3rd chord in the scale (Dm7), then the 6th (Gm7), etc.

If there are any musicians reading this post, hopefully they will verify for you my set of chord progressions here.

I use this exercise as illustration to point out the fact that some types of music, for example jazz, contemporary gospel, R&B, allows the singer to do the really creative things that the rather simplistic (in terms of chord changes, of course) reggae, soca, funk, etc. does not as easily allow. Of course, this is not to say that a reggae singer cannot be creative! Many, in fact, are! Listen to what guys like Delroy Wilson, Dennis Brown and Ken Boothe have done in the past with those bluesy, off-key-sounding notes, for example (similar to what guys like Lou Rawls and Brook Benton used to do so often)! Those reggae singers were greater vocalists than many people probably realize!

Rather, what I’m saying is that it is MORE DIFFICULT to do in reggae what, for example, Luther Vandross and Jennifer Holliday did on stage years ago during their performance of Paul Simon’s “Bridge Over Troubled Waters” (I will never ever forget that duo, and how Paul Simon, who was singing with them, was made to look like a kindergarten kid learning to sing his own song!)

I love reggae passionately, but because the beat is uptempo, and because the chords used tend to be very limited, it is generally more challenging for a reggae singer to do what his/her jazz counterpart does. Someone, in a recent post on this forum, used the excellent example of the singer Sanchez to illustrate reggae’s self-imposed limitations.

I might continue this discussion later if I get an opportunity to do so.

[Historian]

Harold Butler!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TbDHOYooA

just listen

Damn, this is beautiful stuff, Gamma!!

I saw your YouTube link only after I made my first post above! Thank you for this gem from the great Harold Butler! I hope other music lovers on this forum will listen to this live performance and so understand my use of certain superlatives when referring to Harold! I notice also that this is a recent concert, and this is absolutely good news as it hopefully means that he has gotten/is getting over the psychological problems that have dogged him since around the 1980s. (At one point he was actually a mad man roaming the place.)

The medley that Harold played in this video (Duke Ellington’s “Take the A Train,” Bob Marley’s “Is This Love” and the late Brent Dowe’s “Sweet Sensation”) illustrates perfectly the awesome talent of this great keyboardist!

GREAT JAMAICAN KEYBOARDISTS: Jamaica has produced immensely good keyboard players, but of course, most are not as readily known as the idiots of dancehall. But we have produced many! In addition to the immensely talented Harold Butler, we have been blessed with so many others, including classical pianist Orrett Rhoden, jazz pianist Monty Alexander, reggae keyboardists Michael “Ibo” Cooper and the late Mickey Wallace (Wallace is formerly of Chalice and later Third World), jazz keyboardist/violinist Jon Williams, gospel keyboardist Stephen Stewart, and a host of others!

Jangle's post yesterday about the “Unsung Stalwarts,” is so appropriate! I recall, to cite one example, the first time I heard Stephen Stewart. Stephen has toured and recorded with Sly and Robbie, the Wailers (after Marley’s death), etc. But he has never stopped playing in his church! The first time I heard him was one day when a friend invited me to the Pentecostal Gospel Temple at 111 Windward Road, Kingston. Stephen’s mother was/is the senior pastor, and Stephen was the main keyboard player. I was a youngster then, just discovering Harold Butler, and trust me when I say that I freaked out when I heard what Stephen was doing on the keyboards in that church! The strong influence of jazz on his playing was evident even then.

Since my mind strayed to gospel just now, let me identify the greatest gospel group I have ever seen assembled in Jamaica. This group of high profile musicians, formed sometime in the late 1970s, did not last more than a few months. I believe the name of the group was “Flight,” but I’m depending on memory here (and I could be wrong). But I noticed that at their first concert in Kingston, which I attended, the members of Third World were out in full force, and some of the stuff used by that gospel group belonged to Third World. In fact, Irvin “Carrot” Jarrett and Michael “Ibo” Copper sat immediately behind me, with their dates, at that concert.

To give you an idea of the impressive talent in that gospel group, one of the drummers was Cleveland Browne, one of the keyboard players was Stephen Stewart, and I cannot remember the rest of the guys now. But this power band had two simultaneous trap drummers, just like Earth, Wind and Fire did!

Anyway, I’ll end on this often overlooked historical note: Do you realize that the legendary Skatallites lasted less than two years as a group? Well, this is a fact.

[Assasin]

Very good post historian. I agree with most of what you said. You calling some very good singers and people forget that Jennifer Holiday is a wicked vocalist and the original artist for " I am telling you" and not Jennifer hudson.

What you are saying is true but it is partially because of what we as the audience want in part. I was listening to Bitty Mclean(thanks Gamma) on the "scandal" and I any great singer can take it where they want on this riddim on others. In some cases a good engineer can hold the bass and let it go check Sanchez "Fall in love" and "you are not alone". While it may not be for the whole song but sometimes engineer need to concentrate more on the vocals than riddim. Part ofthe problem with Sanchez is he did even realise his vocal power until about halfway in his career. Because of the power of the DJ business so many singers start out as DJ including Sanchez, George Nooks, Garnett Silk and others.

Historian, I must say your musical knowledge is great and second to none, big up to that. I just think many of the singers and engineer can do so much better. Look at Wayne Wonder "No letting Go", Wayne Wonder slow the riddim a put vocals to it.

To too many singers it is about putting the "swing in it" rather than letting it go. Harold Butler concentrated on arrangement and made sure the singer's voice was heard in its entire and didn't overcrowd it. In todays world of Jamaican and North American reggae music I doubt Harold Butler's songs would have gotten much airplay .

A good vocalist around for a while is Beenie Man brother Kirk Davis(little Kirk) and other two good vocalists are the Golds, Brian and Tony but all they do is backup tour singing for Bennie, Shaggy, and you name it, once in a while release a song. Kirk Davis is now a christian.

I am not saying you are wrong but the audience and what the radio promote makes a big difference.

[Gamma]

tony gold (a good friend of my sister's) sang "leaning on the everlasting arms" at my father's funeral and it was so beautiful that it took me out of my grief just listening to his beautiful rendition which highlighted his voice.

[Gamma]

didn't harold write songs like "one step ahead" and "got to get away"? i'm not sure but if he did listen closely to lyrics...they are coming from a place where it is difficult to go without it affecting your soul and is perhaps a small windo into harold's psychological issues.

just the musings of an armchair fan....

[Gamma]

the brigands refuse to ship to my neck of the woods!!! i'm not done yet though...

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinf...cart=822557341

[Karl]

Anyway, I’ll end on this often overlooked historical note: Do you realize that the legendary Skatallites lasted less than two years as a group? Well, this is a fact.

mmmm?
Somehow in my mind, coupled with the timelessness of their music, was the thought that they were 'together' for 'years and years'...?
mmmm?

I believe you.
...and can you give us any facts on number of times they reunited (came together) for one-off appearances?
Thanks!

[Assasin]

I remember hearing one a the Gold at a concert in NY and I can only say he is good. I don't really know them different as I have not seen them too many times but as you can confirm their voices are second to none and been used as backup harmony for Shabba, Shaggy, Buju and all the big names. They are constantly touring.

When you come a mainland you get di CD

[Exile]

What about Jackie Mittoo???? Can't talk about Jamaican Keyboard and NOT mention his name. If you don't have his tribute cd..go and get it today!

[Historian]

Very good post historian. I agree with most of what you said. You calling some very good singers and people forget that Jennifer Holiday is a wicked vocalist and the original artist for " I am telling you" and not Jennifer hudson.

What you are saying is true but it is partially because of what we as the audience want in part.

Historian, I must say your musical knowledge is great and second to none, big up to that. I just think many of the singers and engineer can do so much better. Look at Wayne Wonder "No letting Go", Wayne Wonder slow the riddim a put vocals to it. I am not saying you are wrong but the audience and what the radio promote makes a big difference.

Thank you very much for your very kind words, Assasin. However, I must point out again that your musical knowledge is also immense, as most/all of us on this forum surely realize by now after years of reading your excellent contributions!

Actually, I fully agree with everything you’ve said in your post, including the indisputable fact that things are the way they are “partially because of what we as the audience want.” This is so true, as for an artist or producer to completely ignore the needs of audience is to condemn themselves to a life of obscurity! (I didn't quote everything you said here for the simple reason that anyone wanting to know can read your post above.)

I also agree with you that many engineers do not place as much focus on the vocals as they do the rhythm. A few days ago you made a very interesting post on Wayne Wonder and discussed the matter of vocals, including harmony. I agreed with what you said then, and the only reason why I did not respond was that I wanted to give others a chance to air their views. Your example today of Wayne Wonder’s “No Letting Go” is an appropriate example. Both the recording and the video were excellent productions, and made me feel proud of what some in our music industry are doing today.

I also agree with your views on Harold Butler and the fact that today's music market have no time for sophistication. This started to become obvious with the rise of rap, hip hop and neo-soul.

Jennifer Holliday is really, really good, and I wish that I could find a videotape of that performance where she and Luther Vandross joined Paul Simon on stage. I saw that video at least 25 years ago on JBC TV, and I’ve never forgotten that awesome performance! I felt bad for Paul Simon, though, as he was completely lost in the elaborate, creative exchanges between Vandross and Holliday.

Many people don't realize that Jennifer Holliday was in Broadway, and in fact was part of the cast of the original "Dreamgirls." Finally, Brian and Tony Gold are outstanding singers, as anyone who has heard them sing at, for example, weddings will attest. This is no doubt why high profile people like Shaggy, etc. choose to work with them.

[Islandman]

Jennifer Holiday in live Dreamgirls performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czftJ...eature=related

Can't leave out my girl Whitney though. I still think this rendition of Star Spangled Banner at the Super Bowl is the best I have ever heard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYhio...eature=related

[Historian]

mmmm?
Somehow in my mind, coupled with the timelessness of their music, was the thought that they were 'together' for 'years and years'...?
mmmm?

I believe you. ...and can you give us any facts on number of times they reunited (came together) for one-off appearances? Thanks!

Karl, I have no idea or information on how many times this super group reunited, except that the original Skatalites (that is, with all its original members) never played together after the breakup.

Here’s a synopsis of the Skatalites situation.

The Skatalites were formed in 1963 and disbanded sometime in 1965. What versions we have seen since 1965 are just that, close versions (for example, their key musician committed suicide not long after they disbanded, while lead singer Jackie Opel went solo and then migrated). Also, and this is important to note, although we look back on the Skatalites with nostalgia, the fact is that they were not a terribly popular band in Kingston in the early 1960s!!

The Skatalites eventually disbanded in 1965 due to a combination of financial and personal problems. In addition to the difficulty of band members being able to support their families (the salary was never enough), there were also the alleged petty jealousies and rivalries within the Skatalites for various reasons. For example, some accounts are that Tommy McCook and Roland Alphonso often had problems with each other. Some historical sources claim that Clement Dodd, the band’s main employer, was one of the major reasons why this great band split after a short while.

Added to this was the matter of the eccentricity of a couple of the members. In a post I made on this forum on the Skatalites lead singer Jackie Opel several months ago, I mentioned that he was sometimes the fill-in bass player in the band. This is because the bassist, Lloyd Brevette, an alcoholic, did not always turn up for concerts. And we all know about Don Drummond’s psychological problem, which led to him being placed in Bellvue mental hospital on a number of occasions before he eventually killed his girlfriend and then committed suicide.

When Roland Alphonso and keyboard player Jackie Mittoo left, the band was not able to survive. So, a number of factors ensured that the Skatalites were not around together for more than two years.

By the way, one major difference between the musicians in the Skatalites and many other Jamaican bands back in the 1960s is that when the Skatalites played on stage, they often played from sheet music, or else had parts written out.

[Baddaz]

reading the posts in the thread... very interesting read - all of them... islandman, i actually saw dreamgirls on broadway and was lucky that jennifer holiday had performed on the night i went... some friends went on another day and it was jennifer holiday's day off...

as much as i love jennifer hudson's, i still believe holidays rendition of the song is better - had more feeling...