Sting bashers thread

[Islandman]

Lionpaw has a point that the Sting bashers hijacked his thread so I will start a new one. I know that nothing is more annoying than starting a thread and seeing it taken into a totally different direction.

Let me state upfront. I am a self-proclaimed Sting basher. I don't expect it to go away or to lose fans any time soon because it appeals to so many peoples musical tastes but I have hated the existence of that show for probably 20 years now as I think it tends to highlight just about everything that is bad with Jamaica and Jamaicas music.

Lets go way back to the early days of Sting in the 80s . I started having a problem with that show when Bunny Wailer and Maxi Priest were "shandy bottled" on stage. Other than the obvious disrespect to these artistes, these morons cared nothing about the damage they were doing to band equipment, etc. Move on another year or two with near-violent "4 the hard way" clashes with Flourgon, Ninja, Junior Demus, etc and you could see that they were getting closer to outright violence. Then after the Shabba/Ninja clash which made Ninja the unofficial ruler of Sting, came the famous Ninja/Super Cat clash with Super Cat getting bottled and warning the crowd "me have me gun pon me" before throwing a bottle back in the crowd and causing serious bodily injury.

Thats about when I realised that this show and its clashes brings out the worst in performers and crowds. i\Its not the only show where this happens but because it is high profile the stakes are high and performers see it as a career maker and breaker so they will do whatever they can not to come off in a negative light.

So lets move on....some historic Beenie/Bounty clashes sure, but then eventually we get to incidents like Kartel and Ninja actually fighting on stage.

People, is it not reasonable to expect that one of these days an entertainer will probably be shot on stage, or maybe shoot into the crowd?

I am sorry but Sting is bad news, or to be more specific the clash culture of Sting is bad news, and we all know that the clash is the main event of Sting every year.

[Lazie]

To each his own Islandman. I don't think its fair to deprive others because I'm not for it. I don't like cricket, basketball and other 2nd tier sports. I don't like that annoying sound that people call classical music. Whats classical about? Most english speakers have no idea what Luciano Pavorotti is saying, but I don't call for an end to them.

Yes, those incidents were a black eye on the event. But haven't they made changes to address the shandy bottle issue? I for one like clashes. 2 Sounds going at it dub fi dub or 45 shootout, 2 DJs (spinning discs) facing off,with their mixing ability and I do like when the artistes dem face off.

By the way, is there a clash every year? I don't think so. Alright, tek you the clash feature then. Would you still be against it?

[Lionpaw]

Controversy is what brought Sting to where it is today. It's the passion, the vibe, the drama and the fact that the performing acts know that it's do or die thus bringing their A-game. This is where the real dancehall fans turn up. Not them uptown wannabes. U wont see a Sean Paul or a Shaggy at Sting. It's not Sumfest where an artiste can give a bull**************** performance and get away with it. It's no holds barred. Not no "sing and go home". As Laing says, "it's the final frontier", "where all confrontations are settled". Us real dancehall fans wouldn't have it any other way. It's the greatest Dancehall show on earth and if they try and change it in any way, it would mean the end of it. Low Sting!!! No one is being forced to attend so if you're not a fan of it and dont want to turn up, not a problem.

[Mitty]

Some of the clashes are very humorous when they are done wid some taste. When you get a chance youtube Papa San v stitchie and play both parts...funny nuh hell. The creativity and humor in their lyrics are quite amusing... This is why there is not a genre of music that is as versitile as reggae music.

[Islandman]

Let me be clear, I am not advocating for the show to be banned or dancehall music to end or anything like that so i am not trying to deprive anybody of anything. I am commenting on a specific show and more specifically, a feature of a specific show.

I think clashes are exciting yes, its just another form of rivalry which is always going to attract attention in sports and entertainment , but there comes a point where they become dangerous and nowhere is the danger at a higher level than at a Sting clash.

What I don't want to happen is for Jamaica and dancehall to have a Biggie/Tupac situation, where rap music lost two of its best artistes over bullsh!t rivalries. The hip-hop and dancehall sub-cultures are similar in so many ways that it is easy to see how dancehall could be the victim of something like that.

So to answer your question, yes I think the hyped-up clash feature is what I have against Sting. Now if Sting does away with clashes probably someone else would take it up, but it definately creates a fertile environment for a major incident with those clashes.

[Islandman]

I agree, those were humorous but it all depends on the artistes doesn't it? You can tell from the artistes what the clash is going to be like and some clearly have more of a tendency for violence than others.

[Mitty]

Lazie, yuh nuh like cricket! a whe u fraida, the bat or the ball. The stumps have a sharp pointy edge but chuss me it naw go hurt u. Improve u hand eye coordination, take some ballet lessons, get a lasik surgery, buy some protective equipment and try it. The thought of a hard small ball coming at u at 150KPH is enough to give u the thrill of a lifetime.

[Bricktop]

Its not the only show where this happens but because it is high profile the stakes are high and performers see it as a career maker and breaker so they will do whatever they can not to come off in a negative light.

Whose career has STING ever made or broke?

[Islandman]

Well, let me revise that and say Sting clashes have been a big career enhancer and to some extent a career damager for artistes.

Sting clashes are certainly what made Ninjas a reputation as a clash-killer, and it was Shabbas greatest meltdown. The early Sting clash between Beenie and Bounty was what took thier rivalry to a new level, and helped both of thier careers.

The big clashes are remembered for years and now going on decades after they occur. That makes them very important to an entertainers career. How many live shows of any DJs career are remembered? Not many.

[Bricktop]

Well, let me revise that and say Sting clashes have been a big career enhancer and to some extent a career damager for artistes.

Sting clashes are certainly what made Ninjas a reputation as a clash-killer, and it was Shabbas greatest meltdown. The early Sting clash between Beenie and Bounty was what took thier rivalry to a new level, and helped both of thier careers.

The big clashes are remembered for years and now going on decades after they occur. That makes them very important to an entertainers career. How many live shows of any DJs career are remembered? Not many.

I was at the NINJA - SHABBA "clash" which wasn't really a clash but anyway SHABBA went on to sign with SONY EPIC so nuttin really came a that. BEENIE and BOUNTY who even remembers their clashes at STING? I barely do and I'm not sure that had anything to do with BEENIE signing to VIRGIN/EMI and leaving BOUNTY in the dust. Did KARTEL's career come crashing down after the incident with NINJA at STING? Worse happened at WEST KINGSTON JAMBOREE the otha day when two skettel start dash acid on each odda causing stampede and peopl drop down inna gully so what's really the difference?

[Historian]

For Islandman

Let me state upfront. I am a self-proclaimed Sting basher. I don't expect it to go away or to lose fans any time soon because it appeals to so many peoples musical tastes but I have hated the existence of that show for probably 20 years now as I think it tends to highlight just about everything that is bad with Jamaica and Jamaicas music. I am sorry but Sting is bad news, or to be more specific the clash culture of Sting is bad news, and we all know that the clash is the main event of Sting every year.

Islandman, I had not planned to reply to any post today, but after reading the various posts you made today in all three music threads, I find myself compelled to respond, and not merely because I agree with EVERY sentence you have typed since this day began!!

Whether some are prepared to accept it or not, dancehall, and in particular it’s emissary Sting, has become a metaphor for indiscipline and rabid self-aggrandizement in Jamaican society today!

I've always read your posts with great interest and equally great respect, particularly since that day several months ago when the issue of CARICOM and Caribbean integration was discussed. Your comments surprised me that day, as rarely do I get the chance to meet someone with as insightful and empathizing an understanding of the important regional integration movement as you showed in that particular thread. And while I did not (and still do not) share all of your your optimism regarding CARICOM and the CSME, in your posts that day you made me realize the weaknesses behind my stance. But I should not have been surprised then, as your posts have always shown an obvious intimate knowledge of history, culture, economics, and politics.

(These comments of mine here, by the way, are not to be seen as in any way a belittling of the value or content of posts by other members of this forum. Rather, I am speaking specifically to Islandman right now because his posts today have made me realize that all is not completely lost as far as our ability to look below the hype and superficiality that highlights so much of the society and culture in 21st century Jamaica.)

Islandman, your posts today have demonstrated an intellect and a restraint in the face of opposing arguments that is admirable. And your illustrations are all totally relevant! To cite one example, your reference to Sanchez and the fact that reggae has not allowed him to display the full rich quality and range of his voice is indeed an excellent example! Sanchez, like other obviously talented Jamaican singers such as A.J. “Boots” Brown, the late John Jones, the late Peter Scarlett, and so on, is a truly exceptional singer!

And by the way, I found the fact that you have actually visited black churches (you wrote, “I have visited a few black southern churches in the US in recent years”) interesting, as this will first hand acquaintance with this dynamic genre will clearly lend weight to any discussion you choose to have on African-American gospel music. I, too, have made it a point to listen very widely to various genres, and as far as gospel music is concerned, like you, I too find “the pipes I hear on some of those local choir singers is simply amazing”!

Your statement that “it’s not that reggae singers can’t sing, it is that in general the music does not require them to do it anywhere near as often as a gospel or jazz singer does” has hit the nail squarely on the head! The fact that at least one poster didn’t realize that this is exactly what I said in that other thread suggests mischief making on the part of that poster! I’m sure that my statement on this was clear.

What far too many people fail to realize is that dancehall today accurately mirrors the morass into which a once great nation has fallen!! Does music mirror society? In my honest opinion dancehall is doing that today, and so it is no surprise the increasing hostility with which this degredation of reggae music is being regarded in a number of Caribbean nations at this time!

What we need is a major study on the effects of dancehall, not only on the educational system (posters here would be highly surprised at how many Jamaican educators have continuously reported difficulties with children sleeping in class instead of learning, thanks to late night sessions), but also on family life! This empirical study should also include important aspects such as the loss of priorities as young mothers/fathers choose to spend their little cash (including those Western Union remittances) on dancehall’s fashions, etc., instead of school books, etc. for their children!

But what’s the point of continuing to make critical posts? In the end it will come to nothing as we continue our steep decline over the abyss.

[Bricktop]

What we need is a major study on the effects of dancehall, not only on the educational system (posters here would be highly surprised at how many Jamaican educators have continuously reported difficulties with children sleeping in class instead of learning, thanks to late night sessions), but also on family life! This empirical study should also include important aspects such as the loss of priorities as young mothers/fathers choose to spend their little cash (including those Western Union remittances) on dancehall’s fashions, etc., instead of school books, etc. for their children!

What exactly is this gonna tell you? What about the straight A student from a stable family who listens to Dancehall? Are you saying that without Dancehall all children would be straight A students with their priorities in the right place?

[Islandman]

Historian, thanks for all the compliments. I am glad I have a little support against the attacks from the dancehall fanatics!

I sense a lot of frustration in your posts, but let me encourage you to continue to make them. Many forumites will disagree with your disgust with dancehall music (and that is thier right and what makes the forum what it is) but nobody in thier right mind can say that you don't know your music, Jamaican and otherwise.

So keep posting about music and anything else. i enjoy the discussions. I have also learned a lot. I am still listening to Victor Wooten clips on youtube since you mentioned him! That kind of playing can't be learnt, can it?

[Mitty]

Islandman, I was reading your post with frightening anticipation thinking that your reference to a “clash” was an inevitable violent end to a confrontation. But somewhere in there the words dancehall and sting diminished my fear, allowing me to finish your post, then exhaled.

I know that you know that a clash at Sting is a lyrical confrontation to exhibit the DJs creativity, ingenuity, and to take away from the obvious and monotonous repetition of some DJ recorded songs.

Lyrical clashes add variety and spontaneity to a show that does not have a true opening act or main feature act. The lyrical clash is designed as the feature and should only be violent in its lyrical content only. In all the years of watching Sting I have not heard a DJ shot another DJ over a “clash”.

You said “it definately creates a fertile environment for a major incident with those clashes”
What kinda incident? Do you mean on stage or off stage? While I cannot say this with complete certainty. I can tell that if a DJ in one of these clashes is not prepared or gets a lyrical lashing, they will definitely go and improve their writing and delivery skill, it will also force other DJs to come good whether they are in a clash or not.

While lyrical clashes may not conjure up thoughts of a choir boy atmosphere, it is an integral part of our culture that exhibits the talent, and versatility of a gifted set of people. Suh nuh watch nuh face, buy a bootleg sting video, watch it, get some humour, and relax yuself. BTW how is yuh 401k?

[Lazie]

Islandman, read ketch this Shaggy interview.


KH: Do you think the clashing thing could ever go beyond Jamaica?

Shaggy: Yes because I go to a place like Italy which has a strong dancehall following and they are into the clash. Look at di Japanese, they have clash dances for thousands of people; it's a whole culture. When di line start to cross is when dem start to tek it personal and it becomes physical. That sheds a negative light on it. Words caan hurt nobody, card is card, it's made to draw if it's entertaining and it makes you laugh. I know I will be at Sting and mi not even worry bout security. Mi waan see it- Kartel and Mavado

See entire interview at http://www.jamaica-star.com/thestar/.../ent/ent2.html.