HL, Historian & Correct English Usage

[Historian]

The Complexities of the English Language!

(Original Title: “HL – My Error!”)

This post is by no means an attempt to re-start a Jamaican English (Patois) versus Standard English debate, as in my honest opinion this debate has run its course here. Nothing particularly useful would be gained by continuing the debate at this time.

Rather, this post has been made partially to focus on an error I made in my response to HL yesterday, and partially to provide an example of the immense complexities the English language. The word at issue here is the word “that,” which, depending on context, is used either as an adjective, an adverb, a conjunction, or a pronoun. Then, add to this the fact that the plural of “that” is “those,” and we can see headaches in the classroom!

Now, read on……. (Below is my response to HL which I just typed, but decided to include as part of my new thread on the English language):

HL, I just came on the forum a few minutes ago, read my original post and then your reply, and couldn’t believe the error I made yesterday! Often I type my comments quite hurriedly and just as hurriedly read them before posting. Such was the case yesterday.

I had to smile to myself when I read your compliment, “Very good eye on your part,” as when one considers my grammatical error, it really wasn’t all that good a pair of eyes on my part (LOL)! On the other hand, after carefully looking at the content and format (the use of italics) of your reply, I suspect that you may have been, in the most subtly means possible, suggesting my error.

Specifically, the “that” in the context in which it was used in your original post is not a pronoun, but rather, an adverb. Your sentence read, “I don’t think Jamaican gangs are that sophisticated.” This, obviously, makes your context one in which “that” means “to such an extent/the extent”! This fact is one I failed to give thought to while typing my reply yesterday.

Of course, I often use “that” in its pronoun context, hence my error while hastily typing my reply/comment yesterday.

[Mosiah]

Sorry, but this mix-up would not have occurred if we were speaking in our mother tongue.

heh heh!

[Hortical]

Yuh a insinuate dat our madda tongue is patwa?

[Sir X]

The last person who gave me a lesson in nouns & pro nouns were my grand mothers , and i was lost then , lost now.

Do we know that our local dialect has many accents to it , a man from country sounds to totally different from a man from town who speaks patwa.

A man from kingston who spaeks english speaks with a different tone than a country man , I have heard 1st & 2 nd generation panamaninas and nicaraguans , costa ricans whom claim they have Jamaican heritage, said they were born after the canal and they can remember when they parents traveled back and forth to Jamaica , they speak english better than some of our 1st generation Jamaicans.They speak with a slow Jamaican accent reminds me of my grand father from Hanover and he is 92 .

It seems to me as time went by our language it sped up.

Patwa isnt a languauge that is uniform in tone or accents in Jamaica , it runs a wide range through out the Island , even I have to wonder what in the world are they saying esp from deep in the country.

Again to me it all comes down to literacy

[Historian]

Very good points, X

X, you have made some excellent points here, and I fully agree with you:

* “….our local dialect has many accents to it a man from country sounds to totally different from a man from town who speaks patwa.”

* “A man from kingston who spaeks english speaks with a different tone than a country man”

* “It seems to me as time went by our language it sped up.”

* “Patwa isnt a languauge that is uniform in tone or accents in Jamaica , it runs a wide range through out the Island , even I have to wonder what in the world are they saying esp from deep in the country.”

* “Again to me it all comes down to literacy.”

Unfortunately, I’ve never been privileged to speak with a Central American of Jamaican descent. However, I can state that I completely agree with the quoted points above, which you made.

[Gamma]

i was recently in panama and experienced it firsthand......the concierge at the hotel was of jamaica descent and when i told him i was jamaica...straight patois after that......sin accento hispano.....mi shock!!!

he said to me .... "mek i check sup'm"....i nearly keel over.

[HL]

Had a similar experience in Panama too. (If i am not mistaken--i think I have mentioned it here before...).

This taxi driver approached me and asked if i was interested in being shown around. He was quite pleasant and had that Jamaican yaard-man look--so i accepted.

So I struck up a conversation about the link between Jamaica and Panama...

This guy turned out to be a 2nd generation Panamanian/ Jamaican. He has never been to Jamaica...but his patois was good (with a hint of spanish). His grand parents were migrants. Only patois/englis was spoken at home.

I always think about this guy. Mainly because the thing he wanted most...but could not afford, is an 'small' American Ham for Christmas.

(I wish i had taken his address so that i could send him a big one every christmas).

[HL]

Historian: First of all i want to thank you!!

I now have a new appreciation for the word 'that'.

Look, I seldom check my spellin' or grammar when i post. If i re-read my post after it's posted--and find that it need editing , I may do so. Often times i don't...since I am sure the thought i want to convey is generally understood by the reader.

Maybe that's where patois comes in handy. There is no need for syntax.

[Mosiah]

There is no need for syntax.

I agree! Especially at 16.5%! What is it in Atlanta?

[HL]

good one!! never thought of it that way.

I guess that tax must be hitting you hard--wid the hole-heepa white rum and kraven-a yuh smoke....heheheee

[Gamma]

but casinos nuh reach yet and bruce don't plan to legalise prostitution...unless yuh....wait deh wha dat yuh telling me?

[Mosiah]

yuhseeit! might haffi stick to di natural tings, if yuh know what a mean! dem nuh start tax dat yet.

[Mosiah]

but casinos nuh reach yet and bruce don't plan to legalise prostitution...unless yuh....wait deh wha dat yuh telling me?