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  • Introducing Myself

    I’m using this opportunity to hail every member of the Reggae Boyz Forum (including the much beleaguered Naminirt and Zeppo).

    Now, don’t let the join date above (July 2008) fool you. In a sense this date is incorrect, as I’ve been a daily reader of the Reggae Boyz Forum for some six years now. In addition, I used to post fairly regularly on the forum back in the day when we had regular forum members like the ladies Princess, Karen and Portia, and males such as Matter (who I still remember with much respect), X (at work)Mexxx, and many, many others.

    Mosiah will no doubt recall my first post made on this forum, at least five years ago, when I responded to his praise of dancehall music (Mosiah’s favorite statement back then was “Dancehall nice”). My first post on the Reggae Boyz Forum was a detailed essay on why dancehall is actually a detriment to and a dangerous component of Jamaican society and culture. Since then, I am more convinced that I am correct.

    Before that first post critiquing Mosiah's views, I had been a fairly regular contributor to the Caribbean Track and Field Forum, as Willi, Karl, MdmeX and others will no doubt recall.

    For a couple of years after that first Reggae Boyz Forum post, I made fairly regular contributions here, sometimes passionately as in my detailed rebuttal to Jawge’s and Campeon’s misguided criticism of tourism in general, and the all-inclusive industry in particular. However, after the Reggae Boyz administrators changed the format, I, along with a million others, simply stopped posting.

    Why am I back? Well, I’d long ago reached the conclusion that this message board, like Willi’s track and field forum, demonstrates more and more each day why the once beautiful island of Jamaica is in the mess that it’s currently in!! (I’m not joking!) I’ve been silently reading and digesting the daily discussions here for the past several years, the more recent one being the views on the retrograde, wasteful attempt by members of the Jamaican intelligentsia to put aside our genuine developmental problems and, instead, waste time and effort in introducing patois as a separate language in schools.

    To be frank, posters such as Willi, Bricktop, Baddaz and Lazie have advanced excellent, thought-provoking reasons why this new patois movement is a waste of time and resources, time and resources which would be better spent in preparing the average Jamaican for participation in a globalized world. In other words, instead of our educators and other decision-makers turning their attention to the introduction of, say, Spanish in primary and high schools as a mandatory subject, they are about to further marginalize the Jamaican child by forcing upon them the added burden of studying a language that nobody else in the world speaks, and that very, very few people understand or even care to understand!

    And my attitude here is NOT self-hate!! I am extremely proud to be Jamaican, but at the same time I’m a realist who appreciates the fact that Jamaica forms a tiny, almost unimportant part of our world! The "great importance" of Jamaica is more a figment of our imagination than something that is based in reality!

    I love patois very much, and when singers such as Diane King and Tarrus Riley, and genuinely talented DJ’s such as Papa San make use of patois in their recordings, it is the most beautiful thing, in my honest opinion! On the other hand, I’m also cognizant of the fact that the vast majority of our neighbors, who live in South America and Central America and in the North American country of Mexico, are Spanish-speaking people. In fact, the sole exceptions are South America’s Brazil, Guyana, French Guiana and Suriname, and Central America’s Belize. In a tourism-driven economy like Jamaica, wouldn’t it be ideal for our young citizens to be fluent in both English and Spanish, thus making them more relevant to the needs of Jamaica's developing economy in the twenty-first century?

    Standardization is an excellent idea and nothing is wrong with this exercise, in my opinion. But to foist on already stressed-out youngsters the teaching of a language which the world does not speak, a language which will most likely NEVER become a dominant language in the world, is idiocy at its highest level.
    Last edited by Tilla; July 3, 2008, 07:11 PM. Reason: To correct error pointed out by writer

  • #2
    Correction: July 2008 (second paragraph)

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    • #3
      Mi ah tink bout di 5 year old dat appear inna Primary School and di only ting him can speak is Patois, di only ting him parents and family speak is Patois and di ongle ting him community speak is Patois..

      How yuh propose to deal wid that stark reality.. have them limp along in a foreign language..

      Sumting seem wrang bout dat...

      Comment


      • #4
        While there is the negitive and we come here and debate everyday, this is not the reason Jamaica is where it is today.

        Dancehall and Jamaican music has made a lot of money not only for Jamaicans but Sony, Atlantic etc. How else would atlantic sign a million dollar deal with VP, How else would Sean Paul have the biggest selling record worldwide in one year? and the year before Shaggy was competing for the same spot

        If Jamaica was like the forum they would be in good condition. We come and we argue everyday. We fight, we laugh and we cry togather and nobody nuh dead. We accept the bright, the dumb and everybody in between except the disrespectful posters.

        Most of us while we defend our position we also look at others position(even though you may not know that from a post sometimes).

        Yes there is bad in the dancehall and all the music can't be singer. You may not realise but we influenced American Rap and DJs, even in Japan and Germany they etc. they have sound system today. Where else was it born?

        I have worked in tourism and most tourist while they want you to speak their language they want to learn about your uniqueness as a destination and that is what the Jamaican culture is about. Let us not be Europe light Or Miami south.

        Why did you even have to mention "self hate"?
        • Don't let negative things break you, instead let it be your strength, your reason for growth. Life is for living and I won't spend my life feeling cheated and downtrodden.

        Comment


        • #5
          Maudib, how could I leave your name out of my short list of “regular posters back in the day” (LOL)? Of course, back then you were posting under a different name (a name which I preferred). Interestingly, over the years I’ve often agreed with your position on issues, with this patois debate being one of my few major disagreements.

          I understand your view about the little child, and while I have no intention of further entering the already fiery debate here, I have for much too often seen Jamaicans suffering abroad as a result of poor communication skills. ALL Caribbean countries have their native dialect, but do we see other Caribbean countries diverting from the seriousness of a well-rounded, world-focusing education to run wild experiments? Their little children are learning properly using the vehicle of standard English!! But we find excuses to cover up our lack of foresight and lack of genuine will and strength. And please don’t tell me the incorrect but popular cliché that “Jamaica leads the way” or any other false notions like that! The last time I checked, outside of track and field and netball, we lag behind other Caribbean countries in innumerable social and economic ways!

          To cite one example, Guyana, despite its immense economic challenges, can boast over the years (including the last two years) of having the students with the most impressive CXC results in the region! And these are ordinary East Indian and Negro children who speak Guyanese dialect in their everyday communication! Some of those students don't even live in GT proper, but in outlying "bush" districts.

          In addition, Jamaica has one of the largest migratory patterns in the region. My interest is in seeing educators prepare young Jamaicans for the world that exists beyond the shores of Kingston and Negril. And I notice certain posters here throwing emotional red herrings into the debate with their mention of Bob Marley and reggae music!! Almost 30 years after his death we are still invoking Marley’s name in our defence of education positions!

          But like I said above, posters like Willi and Baddaz and Lazie and Assasin and others have advanced excellent reasons why this project will ultimately be yet another waste of Jamaica’s already limited resources.

          For some reason, unlike other Caribbean countries, we NEVER seem to get it right!!

          Comment


          • #6
            Assasin, I have to go out now, so it’s impossible at this time to respond to your post (and you ALWAYS make, in my honest opinion, excellent, logical posts!) with the attention it deserves. I might revisit this topic at another time (although I’m sure Mosiah is tired of me and dancehall now; LOL).

            Let me say this, though: I’m a jazz musician (not as a career, however) who’s had intimate knowledge of studio life in Jamaica, so you’re preaching to the converted. I also know all about Bronx-based Jamaican selector Kool Herc and his supposed overriding influence on American rap. But let me tell you this, there were other American-based influences on rap, including certain southern radio disk jockeys. Even Herc is surprised at statements of his influence on rap, and he's tried to downplay this in early interviews!

            Now, it’s all well and good that Sean Paul and his girlfriends and family members have benefitted from his wealth. What great benefit this is to Jamaican society is hard to fathom at this point. In addition, I’m not sure if I should cheer about the fact that dancehall has made “a lot of money” for Sony, Atlantic and other major labels.

            What I care about is the denigrating effects of dancehall on our youth and education, and on our young females. One day, and of this I’m absolutely sure, a bold and forward-looking psychologist will present us with empirical evidence that the current high levels of abuse of our women and girls, and of sex trafficking and prostitution, is intrinsically linked to the destruction of our sensitive and respect towards the female sex which is revealed in dancehall scenarios such as Passa Passa, etc.!! In fact, I applaud fully the banning of Passa Passa by regional countries such as Guyana and Grenada!

            Also, I’m not sure if you have ever spoken at length to educators in Jamaica! If you haven’t, please rest assured that when I say that dancehall culture is having a disastrously negative effect on attitudes and academic performance inside the walls of many of our primary and elementary school classrooms, I'm stating a fact! (To cite one example, the effects of attention by students who missed sleeping properly the night before because of a dancehall session.)

            BTW, I mentioned “self-hate” because that word was used more than once in the discussions in other threads on this forum!

            Assasin, I respect you man, but I have to go now, otherwise I’ll be late for an appointment! We'll have further exchanges.

            Comment


            • #7
              Welcome back Historian! Yuh puddung some very cogent argument to support your position!

              Anyway, remember that the forum only exists because of the diversity of opinions of our visitors. The day that each and everyone start agree with each other, it is the day that people will stop coming and participating or even reading post as you have been doing.

              You mentioned that you stopped posting when we changed format, you and millions of other posters. We know that change is one of the major hurdles for our people, even if it is for the better. The previous forum was dated and could not handle the traffic we were getting, hence the reason to migrate to one which was more suited for our current needs and future growth. We realized that we could not please everyone, but we had to do what we thought was in the best interest of this community.

              Anyway, good to have you back and keep those opinions coming.
              "Only when you drink from the river of silence shall you indeed sing. And when you have reached the mountain top, then you shall begin to climb. And when the earth shall claim your limbs, then shall you truly dance." ~ Kahlil Gibran

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Historian View Post
                What I care about is the denigrating effects of dancehall on our youth and education, and on our young females. One day, and of this I’m absolutely sure, a bold and forward-looking psychologist will present us with empirical evidence that the current high levels of abuse of our women and girls, and of sex trafficking and prostitution, is intrinsically linked to the destruction of our sensitive and respect towards the female sex which is revealed in dancehall scenarios such as Passa Passa, etc.!!
                respect historian... yuh iz a longtimer... this particular section deserves to be its own thread... i will say i am in total agreement with this view of yours...

                now that you appear, dont stay away too long...
                'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                Comment


                • #9
                  bwoy this patois awgiment lively suh til... maudib, i really understand where you are coming from... however, what about the others in the class who can understand english...

                  should the country make a decision to cater for the 'one' child at the expense of the others in the class...

                  lets advance this scenario... would the school be doing the child justice by keeping the child in the patois realm or would the child be better off learning english which would serve as a foundation for future learning and interaction in the world outside his/her community...

                  btw, i am realizing that most of us are arguing different aspects of this debate...
                  'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    just a few word as it relates to dancehall.

                    A set of parents went to Mr.Chin former principal of Titchfield saying "Titchfield has gone to the dogs" and Mr. Chin said no " It is your dogs have come to Titchfield".

                    Same thing with the dancehall. The degraded Jamaican society has taken over the dancehall. If nobody cheer when them gwaan with them foolishness they wouldn't sell a record, but nuff a we get caught up in the hype. I have played my part in influencing good music and positive lyrics as producer and promoter but family life call for a break.

                    What was one of the major problem is that the drug dealers took over everything from promotion to production and artist management so the standards reflected their way of life.

                    walk good

                    Now it is different especially in the US as nuff a the a go a jail.
                    • Don't let negative things break you, instead let it be your strength, your reason for growth. Life is for living and I won't spend my life feeling cheated and downtrodden.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Caan believe yuh still alive, welcome back!
                      Mi same one,Rocky.


                      Blessed

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Historian you need to get a reality check , S.American and Carribbean nations that speak spanish each have thier own dialect , so that argument is weak at best.

                        The mexican ,dominicans, and panamanians dont speak the same type of spanish , like Jamaicans , Americans , Guyanese , Scots and Trinis have thier own english dialect.It doesnt stop us from communicating though does it ? and i suspect the same for them.
                        THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                        "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                        "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Historian, welcome back. Don't make yourself history now, especially with contributions like this one. Much appreciated.

                          pr
                          Peter R

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            X, what are you talking about? Learning a foreign language, the standard version, can only be a benefit to our people, collectively and individually. So much more of the world just opens up to you.

                            The fact that Jamaicans like you are bi-lingual, i.e. patois and English, should prove that to you easily... imagine adding Spanish, or MAndarin to the mix. Come on man, that's where we need to go.

                            pr
                            Peter R

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Maybe I misunderstood the gentleman (Historian) but I think he was trying to make a point in that all S.american nations communicate in a standard form of spanish , I just wanted to point out it isnt true .

                              Of course I am in favor of learning 2nd languages.The argument about patios in my view is all about literacy, however any one cuts it .

                              Literate to interpret and verbalize both english and patios and in this century of globalization it takes on added meaning.
                              THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                              "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                              "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                              Comment

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