anyone saw the final obama / clinton debate last nite...

[Islandman]

"They fell through the Clinton administration and the Bush administration, and each successive administration has said that somehow these communities are gonna regenerate. And they have not,"

"And," he concluded, "it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy toward people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."

If he had limited it to anti-immigrant and anti-trade it would be a reasonable statement. People in small town USA have been clinging to guns and religion for hundreds of years, the economy has nothing to do with it.

Thats like someone from GLAAD saying Jamaicans are bitter and cling to anti-gay sentiments because their govt has failed them and they are poor and impoverished. I wonder how we would feel about such a statement?

[Karl]

There seems to be a sense of urgency and desperation and it is not limted to Hillary's shameful conduct, but you can tell the media was waitng on something, anthing really, to discredit Obama.NB did not say something THAT discredits...



Blessed

Your statements above fall in with what I was thinking. As fact, it was the media moderators that brought up every old Obama 'hit'. In fact, when they took the question from the 'pro-Republican' radio/tv "Fox" boy' and hit on Obama I was stunned.

This is the first debate I saw where a question from an outside 'media' (quasi-media?) source was allowed. Hillary followed up on the questions - and here I disagree with you that it was shameful.

Hillary may, however, have not entered the discourse using the best possible sentence constructions/language to help her cause. So she may be hurt. I think she is probable thinking that those who would be against her...are already lost and thus her targeted voters are those 'Regan-Democrats' who are thinking of voting Democrat this time around and may be thinking, 'who is this guy, Obama?' She, I think, is working at identifying Obama as not who he says he is. The problem is her strategy may just be too late in the day. As I previously said, she should have been using Obama's words against him.

His - "Words matter!" speech was the greatest gift he gave her and she has not used it once! A series of position changes by him...and mis-steps should have had ads with his "Word matter"...and 'his videos' showing the contrasts of his utterances and the question - "Which of your words matter Senator Obama?"...or some such thing!

The matter of his not taking pac money and his taking of funds from the individuals associated with the source he says he does not take funds from should have been - right front and center with video of him saying he does not take pac funds.

Use his words! Have Obama run against Obama! For the life of me I do not see what could be more powerful than the forceful, articulate, convincing manner of his deliver vs that same forceful, articulate, convincing manner of delivery pointing out competing stances on the same issue - i) raising doubts in the minds of voters; ii) showing he is, contrary to what he claims, running "the same old politics"; iii) pouring doubts on his "judgement"; iv) brings up questions of his truthfulness; v) the spector of his not leveling with the American people?! Obama vs Obama is the way I would have gone!

...the danger would be are there Hillary vs Hillary videos out there and the seriousness of those positions?...and how those would play when contrasted to Obama vs Obama?

The good thing would be Obama has done the defining of Hillary - "same old politics" - so it could be argued/the perception would be Hillary has not denied that...in fact, in some sense she has embraced it...

...while Obama has also defined himself - as not 'into'...not engaged in...the same old politics...therefore it would be his words and actions showing him lying on himself...pulling a 'fast one' on/pulling a fast one over the voters.

As I said I still cannot understand why Hillary has not used Obama vs Obama! I am sure the Republicans shall!

[Karl]

her credibility took a HUGE blow last evening. Obama was not convincing to me, in his explanation of the "clinging to guns and religion" explanation. people are bitter and frustrated, yes, but the clinging part gives it a negative connotation especially when tied to bitterness.

hillary's credibility....

bosnia, she finally apologised and it does seem like she was trying to pull a fast one especially because she repeated several times (she tried the "get some rest" defence too)

aylesbury (?) she mentioned obama served on a board of directors with him and questioned his judgement while overlooking the fact that bill clinton pardoned 2 members of that same group.

i expect her to win PA, the real question is how well obama does.

the debate IMHO did not hurt him as much as it hurt her in that she needed a slam dunk, which she did not get.

Winning Pennsylvania?
I think Hillary shall win big! I do not think it shall be a squeeker. I think a large group of Republicans shall vote Hillary...even as I think many will vote McCain come November i.e. neither Hillary nor Obama will get those in November. It will be as it shall be in many of the Reopublican States Obama won. Come November McCain shall carry those states.

Many of us here tend to overlook that many of Obama's wins will translate into (matters not if it is Hillary as the nominee or is on the ballot or Obama or Hillary as presidential nominee picks an 'outside' VP running mate)...those are Republican states and the Republican McCain will...not shall...but will win those states. Obama is not as strong as the number of wins he has racked up would fool some into thinking.

[Karl]

the elitist is the one that lost me....out of touch with that demographic, yes, but elitist was too much of a stretch.

yeah but he's the schnitzit with the hoops.....

i'm amazed that bowling is a pro sport!

The elitist ties in with his manner ...his schooling and his statements. His 'looking down the nose' manner. 'member me did seh im fi careful bout di way im a behave...bouncing pan di stage dem...patronising Hillary (which he still continues to do) - the pats on the back (there! there! hush! hush! ...appears to em pats)...

"Hillary can run as long as she wants!" - suggests 'mi dun win' ...'poor ting'...tut! tut! ...'give sympathy tuh...mi sarri fi har'! 'dis yah fool-fool poor owman'. 'Shi suh tru-pid shi nuh even kno shi lose areadi'. Condesending...looking down nose attitude....as opposed to respectful of person and system? The man is downright dismissive of Hillary...and thus those who supports her.