Jawge can you explain to me the concept

[Assasin]

of Small business in Capitalism?

What role they play? Are the entrepreneurs capitalists as well?

thanks in advance

[Jawge]

I am assuming you are doing
a follow up to my arguments on JA. If yes, then in the JA context; the concept of small businesses in capitalism is non existent (exclude retail; in grocery, footwear and clothing). True entreprenuers cannot exist in an environment where their tax dollars are used aginst them. The small business owners cannot partner with Govt. funds to to venture on any projects. Ja is still using the plantation laws where the govt. fund or give money to the planter class.

Based on the above most small businesses are destined to fail (I think Deika Morrison had a report saying small businesses will fail in Ja, after it's
passed to the second generation). In order for the descendants of slaves to climb out of poverty and give JA a vibrant and well educated middle class, Ja needs a CIVIL RIGHTS BILL. Over to you, Sass.

[Islandman]

Jawge are you aware that most small businesses EVERYWHERE fail within five years?

I am pretty sure you are quoting Ms Morrison out of context, it makes no sense because most small businesses are never passed on to another generation anyway.

What is needed in Jamaica for more people to climb out of poverty is more funding for micro-enterprises, preferably through non-gvernment institutions and less taxes going to the useless government programs with thier corrupt politicians and civil servants.

[Jawge]

Jawge are you aware that most small businesses EVERYWHERE fail within five years?

I am pretty sure you are quoting Ms Morrison out of context, it makes no sense because most small businesses are never passed on to another generation anyway.

What is needed in Jamaica for more people to climb out of poverty is more funding for micro-enterprises, preferably through non-gvernment institutions and less taxes going to the useless government programs with thier corrupt politicians and civil servants.

I was relying on the Morrison report but I will check on what you said of small businesses. Boss I didn't quote Ms. Morrison out of context.

Micro businesses won't work (pardon me but I will speak strictly on the tourist industry) until these hotel chains stop using tax payers money as capital. How can small businesses compete in such an uneven palying field? If Ja wants to continue with All inclusives strung all over the island then these entities must go public with certain shares alloted for workers and vendors in the market, straw market, restaurants, night clubs et alli.
Other than that we are just wasting time. Why should tax payers pay to build something that's also incurring costs on the nation? When the US needs to build a bridge or major highway; the relevenat city sells municpal bonds. It's high time real money start to circulate in Ja's economy so that the children can have quality education and our young boys lay down the guns and be productive.


Note: Foreign all inclusives will not be an exception to the public shares.

[Islandman]

I take your point about the big hotels strangling micro-enterprises in the resort areas. I don't know if I agree with the government banning them in some areas or forcing them to go public though, I would be more for an approach that gives the smaller non-inclusives some types of incentives in certain areas. Port Antonio would be ideal for something like that with all thier underdeveloped attractions. It would be a shame to have people there and locked up in all-inclusives.

Even worse than that to me is when the tour bus operators get paid to take the tourists to certain stores and don't give the local vendors a chance. I saw that in MoBay at the craft market a few years ago, and really and truly I said to myself that if these people riot and burn down those stores I wouldn't agree with it but I would understand fully.

[Jawge]

I take your point about the big hotels strangling micro-enterprises in the resort areas. I don't know if I agree with the government banning them in some areas or forcing them to go public though, I would be more for an approach that gives the smaller non-inclusives some types of incentives in certain areas. Port Antonio would be ideal for something like that with all thier underdeveloped attractions. It would be a shame to have people there and locked up in all-inclusives.

Even worse than that to me is when the tour bus operators get paid to take the tourists to certain stores and don't give the local vendors a chance. I saw that in MoBay at the craft market a few years ago, and really and truly I said to myself that if these people riot and burn down those stores I wouldn't agree with it but I would understand fully.

Boss das why mi like reason wid yuh cause yuh fair (mi can even werk wid yuh disagreement.

The incident you higlighted on the tour bus is the crux of my argument. These entities by pass Mobay's local economy, hence our young boys can be easily lured into a life of crime.

Tell me how a vendor would feel to know that he/she has some shares in the AIs? When the bus go passing by, no Problem. Matter of fact Mobay could have their city tax on these shares (in order to upkeep the town and wash the streets). It's high time we get creative, put on the brakes; in order to stop ourselves from embracing Somalia.

I think that the govt. should not use taxpayers money to fund any business venture (they are not venture capitalist) . You promise to create jobs, then you get tax breaks, lowered import tariffs et al. High time we cut out the slavery method of paying for the slaves and start behaving as capitalist would.

Money must once more circulate in the whole island.

[Islandman]

We are not that far apart in our views on this it seems.

I just really have little confidence in govt doing anything properly, in JA or anywhere else. As far as i am concerned, they should attempt provide a well trained and well equipped security force, a fair justice system, build some decent roads/highways, and some decent public schools and then get the hell out of the way and let people make a better life for themselves. As for them funding business jointly or fully, well lets just say Air Jamaica and leave it at that. I agree with you totally they should stay FAR.

If govt can screw up distributing some FREE light bulbs and waste/tief so much money doing it, then really and truly what can we expect them to do well and why should they be given even more money than they already get to screw more things up?

[Jawge]

Okay, yes the light bulb issue
is a shame and it refelects poorly on our system. I agree with your post but don't look for the govt. to stop aiding these entities, it's a way of life now. Sad to say it but the present Govt. cannot do what we speak of ( from a realistic standpoint). We will continue to spin wheels whilst the taxpayers are burned with hidden costs and at the same time providing capital of business ventures. This gives a glimpse as to why we are third world and will remain so.

[Assasin]

I asked because of your recent rant about capitalism and some capitalists depending on the state. Yes it is something like one out of every 5 business started actually last more than five years in the states. There is a high failure rate especially in food service.

The government can influence how small business grow by allowing low taxes, contracts and providing advertisement ins some cases, seminars etc. Yes many big business take advantage of government policies etc. General Electric, I think it was Chrysler who got complete bail out by the US government, the savings and loan banks etc.

You have to understand that I have come on here and argue against the All-Inclusive concept but it has to be in the mix of hotels in Jamaica. They along with the exclusive clubs of Jamaica which includes Halfmoon, Round Hill, Tryall etc. are making all the money.

As you talk about Port Antonio, there is no all inclusive there and the crime rate is very low so why it not full with tourist? We have a four star hotels offering European plans etc. but the occupancy level is LOW. Can you explain that?

One of the things that is lacking in the tourist industry is in the 80s under Seaga many small hotels pooled togather and came on tours in the US and sell their properties at trade shows. PJ stopped all of this and only the Sandals and Super Clubs could do it. Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself from people who know.

The fact that I have young ones will limit my travel to hotels that cater for them and the all inclusive is food for that. When I travel alone I don't want it and when my kids become bigger I want to travel and explore, but I understand that there is a market for it. If Butch and them can influence the government to that extent then blame the government for been licky licky and Capitalist as you call them will take every advantage they can even the great microsoft.

In your rush to call CAPITALIST you forget a whole small business sector that is vibrant in Jamaica and is currently employing a lot of people.

[Jawge]

Sass please leave the
US out the argument. You notice that I was delaing strictly with JA?
BTW where in the US you see the Govt. partnering with GE and microsoft in business ventures (that's communism boss).

On your last line: I'm talking about small businesses and the Tourist Industry ( a majore foreign exchange earner for JA). Did you notice that I excluded the retail Industry? Come again boss.

[Assasin]

So tourism industry is not in a part of the retail industry? since when?

Jawge say you don't know but the US government has partner in many of these big business in numerous ways, more than you can imagine and influence them where they invest.

You bought the US into this by talking by asking if the US government partnered with any business and yes they do. In democracy government policies help to dictate how business perform or not perform.

[Jawge]

Your talking policies (which if you read the exchange between myself
and islandman; was discussed) I am talking about taxpayers money.

Sass I don't think you read my responses on this thread.

[Assasin]

Policies dictate tax payer's money just in cause you don't undertand

Why you think you have so many business tink tank and people running around to influence government on both sides in Washington. You need to look at the whole picture.

[Jawge]

Okay sass listen to me carefully: I
would like the govt. of Ja to cease from using tax payer's money to
fund ventures (AIs comes quickly to mind) that the taxpayers will have to end up paying for also. What we are stupid or something? Small wonder we are poor and not producing a damn thing (education can't be funded properly, nutrition and medicine the same. These are the building blocks for any progressive society). As I said the govt. can provide tax breaks, ease import tariffs but physical cash NO!! Use your brain to find the money. Can't see small businesses paying taxes so that the very guy who is competing against them is set.

Last time I checked slavery ended (but the laws continue to ensure that we remain a third world nation)

Quick question: why can't I find an all inclusive in the USA and one that
says no tips (regardless of gratuity) . Thanks. Do you see yourself owning an all inclusive chain? If no please explain why. Thanks again.

[Assasin]

But Jawge you support it. I am the one who said Sandals whitehouse should have been a loan and not a government venture. you try to defend PJ them with it. I am the one who lick out against the LOAN of Air Jamaica to Butch by the government but you blame Butch. Government must make good policies to encourge business. When is it our government have been good at doing business. Because of political bias unnu don't support an effective JUTC, an effective Air Jamaica, Sugar Company and also hold people like Paulwell reponsible for the random wasting of tax payers money instead unnu defend them.

I don't care what party it is if the tax payer money is been wasted I will lick out and a that you need to do instead of thinking one is a slave driver and the other is for the people. I give Bruce Golding 6 months to hear clearer policies and one year to see where he is actually heading.

Now who didn't support free education and healthcare under Bruce. The fact is if there is free healthcare then business don't at all level don't have to provide this and it will result in a lower overhead cost. The money save from getting rid of these non performing entities can be used to pay down the debt and a bigger piece of the budget can go towards education.

One thing you must realise and that is tax must not be too burdensome for anyone. right now about 50% of business in Jamaica don't pay taxes, and some that pay pay below their real valuefrom the barber shop to cookshops to musicians, to Butch Stewart and Mega Mart etc. It is a break down in the system, when Seaga came with the back tax axe in the 80s many didn't like it but them fork out their taxes and the government need to make sure this is done. I assume with McMillan in that department nuff things a go happen. The fact is there is a lot of cronyism.

We are poor because of POOR leadership and the lack of understanding of the system in which we operate. We have no idea what productivity means, we have badman politically connected unions that will kill every good move that you make and people who do not believe they are a part of a system that works.

How many of these people you mention have been thrown into jail in the last 18 years? There is a big breakdown like it or not. What about all the businesses that have been closed to facilitate import eg. Goodyear and so many other?

Yes I would own one. From my studies in policy studies as a investor you can get the community involve at many different levels and it can be a win-win situation. It doesn't have to be the community against all-inclusive and vise versa. The all-inclusive have to understand the need for the community and the community have to understand that this is just one dimenstion of the tourism business and treat it according. What we need to do is ensure that All Inclusives do the right things and hold their government accountable as well.

We can't ask the all inclusives to monitor themselves. Do you realise that government can pass law that make all hotels do more in community work? It is not the capitalism way but it can be done.

Florida have how many visitors a year again? they have niche we don't have like Disney and other major attractions that is know worldwide. They have so many hustlers selling timeshare, I would rather go to a all inclusive than a time share any day.