RBSC

Collapse

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Vasciannie’s advice to the dpp

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Vasciannie’s advice to the dpp

    Vasciannie’s advice to the dpp

    Further to our telephone conversation of yesterday’s date, I write pertaining to a request for mutual legal assistance made by the Government of the Netherlands pursuant to the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime. The request for legal assistance has been made to you as the Competent Authority, and it concerns a criminal investigation in respect of Trafigura Beheer B.V., a Dutch legal entity. The allegation set out in the request for legal assistance is that Trafigura Beheer “is believed to be guilty of having bribed public officials of a foreign state, i.e. Jamaica.”

    The scheme for the provision of mutual legal assistance involving Jamaica is set out in our Mutual Assistance (Criminal Matters) Act. Part III of the Act indicates the circumstances in which Jamaica is obliged to give assistance to foreign states. The term “foreign state” is defined in the Act as:

    “(a) a designated Commonwealth state; or
    (b) a treaty state”.

    The act further defines a “treaty state: as “a state that is a party to a relevant treaty and in respect of which an order under section 31(2) is in force”; it empowers the making of an order under Section 31 (2) in the following terms:

    “(2) Where any relevant treaty has been made with any foreign state, the Minister may, by order, declare that the provisions of this Act shall apply in respect of such foreign state, subject to such exceptions, adaptations or modifications, as the Minister, having due regard to the terms of such treaty, may deem expedient to specify in the order for the purposes of implementing such terms.”

    Thus, subject to certain exceptions, you would be obliged, under Jamaican law, to give assistance to the Dutch authorities in this matter if (a) the Netherlands is a party to a relevant treaty, and (b) an order under section 31 (2) of the Act is in force in respect of that relevant treaty.

    Both the Netherlands and Jamaica are parties to the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime (which entered into force in 2003). However, there is no order in force pursuant to section 31(2) in respect of this Convention: the Second Schedule to the Mutual Assistance (Criminal Matters) Act lists a number of Conventions, but makes no reference to the United Nations Conventions, but Transnational Organized Crime. As there is no section 31 (2) order in force in respect of the United Nations Convention on Transnational Organized Crime, you would not be authorized by Jamaican law, as the Competent Authority, to give the assistance sought by the Dutch Government.

    One additional question arises: does the language of the United Nations Convention against Transnational organized Crime require the Jamaican Government as a matter of international law, to comply with the request of the Dutch Government? If there is such an obligation, then, even though you are compelled to follow Jamaican law, the Dutch Government could complain that Jamaican is in breach of international law. There is, in my view, no such obligation. I have reached this conclusion with reference to the language of Article 18 (2) of the Convention, which reads as follows:

    “(2) Mutual legal assistance shall be afforded to the fullest extent possible under relevant laws treaties, agreements and arrangements of the requested State party with respect to investigations, prosecutions and judicial proceedings in relation to the offences for which a legal person may be held liable in accordance with article 10 of this Convention in the requesting party.” (Emphasis added).

    In the present context, the effect of Article 18(2) is to ensure that each State party will not be obliged to violate its domestic laws in carrying out its duties under the Convention. Jamaica would have a full defense in international law in response to any Dutch claim to the effect that the country is not giving full effect to the terms of the Convention.
    Yours sincerely,
    Stephen Vasciannie
    Deputy Solicitor general

    Source: Sunday Herald - Dec 2 - 8, 2007

    Copyright © 2005 Sunday Herald. All rights reserved
    "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

  • #2
    seems as if vasciannie had done too good a job as counsel for the then oppositition's liking... vasciannie's competence at interpreting the standing international treaties and laws was incorrectly viewed by the opposition as defending and shielding the gov't from being investigated by the dutch... any competent lawyer would have given a similar advice...

    thats the sole reason they are trying to keep vasciannie out... badmind wuss dan obeah...
    'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

    Comment


    • #3
      It appears the govt was seeking for a legal reason NOT to assist the Dutch.. against a sordid Entity with muderous activities along the coast of Africa.

      Why would that be ?

      When unnuh come in yah wid unnuh Garvey chat and unnuh slavery chat.. mi ponder is who di sell di slaves dem tuh di white man... not much has changed.

      The 'beloved party' and its followers cannot even FIND their moral compass after 18 years of corruption, pilfering and genetics.

      Well.. wi gwine point unnuh in the right direction and if it lead to a nice cozy spot under di prison.. no tears shall be shed..well maybe self pity.

      Wi not even gwine feel sorry fi unnuh.

      Comment


      • #4
        Damn right!!

        People talking bout class warfare and colour issue, and then tun round and countenance bribery from a white man company that has tangible harmed an African country and showed disdain by that dreadful action.

        By any account, dumping toxic waste on ANY people would be reprehensible, so I dont understand how people who claim to be afrocentric are so silent when an African country is so crassly treated.

        I say, any means that can be found to sink that scum of a company should be vigourously pursued.

        Comment


        • #5
          Even at the expense of the 'beloved party' ?

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Willi View Post
            Damn right!!

            People talking bout class warfare and colour issue, and then tun round and countenance bribery from a white man company that has tangible harmed an African country and showed disdain by that dreadful action.

            By any account, dumping toxic waste on ANY people would be reprehensible, so I dont understand how people who claim to be afrocentric are so silent when an African country is so crassly treated.

            I say, any means that can be found to sink that scum of a company should be vigourously pursued.
            I hope you are not saying that based on the 'letter' above the clear advice given that all the government had to do was take the necessary action and make for the Dutch investigations within 'regulations and law' was to be ignored...
            ...and an action that would cause constitutional questions pursued?

            All the Deputy Solicitor General had done...and it is as clear as day...was say as our constitution currently demands that legislative action needs to be taken persuant to co-operation with the Dutch government.

            • The act further defines a “treaty state: as “a state that is a party to a relevant treaty and in respect of which an order under section 31(2) is in force”; it empowers the making of an order under Section 31 (2) in the following terms:

              “(2) Where any relevant treaty has been made with any foreign state, the Minister may, by order, declare that the provisions of this Act shall apply in respect of such foreign state, subject to such exceptions, adaptations or modifications, as the Minister, having due regard to the terms of such treaty, may deem expedient to specify in the order for the purposes of implementing such terms.”

              Thus, subject to certain exceptions, you would be obliged, under Jamaican law, to give assistance to the Dutch authorities in this matter if (a) the Netherlands is a party to a relevant treaty, and (b) an order under section 31 (2) of the Act is in force in respect of that relevant treaty.
            • Implicit in this is MAKE THE DAMN ORDER!
            • e Netherlands and Jamaica are parties to the United Nations Convention against Transnational Organized Crime (which entered into force in 2003). However, there is no order in force pursuant to section 31(2) in respect of this Convention: the Second Schedule to the Mutual Assistance (Criminal Matters) Act lists a number of Conventions, but makes no reference to the United Nations Conventions, but Transnational Organized Crime.
            Again - MAKE THE DAMN ORDER if you so desire!

            The Deputy Solicitor General then goes further to ram it down the minds/brain of JLP and its leader BRUCE...just on chance that termites have infected their brains!

            [quote]
            • As there is no section 31 (2) order in force in respect of the United Nations Convention on Transnational Organized Crime, you would not be authorized by Jamaican law, as the Competent Authority, to give the assistance sought by the Dutch Government.
            [/quote]

            Again - There is no order in force ...therefore if you so express a desire to cooperate MAKE THE DAMN ORDER! Do that to comply with the Constitution!

            Talk about TERMITES INFECTING BRAINS...?????
            Last edited by Karl; December 2, 2007, 02:46 PM.
            "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Karl View Post
              I hope you are not saying that based on the 'letter' above the clear advice given that all the government had to do was take the necessary action and make for the Dutch investigations within 'regulations and law' was to be ignored...
              ...and an action that would cause constitutional questions pursued?

              All the Deputy Solicitor General had done...and it is as clear as day...was say as our constitution currently demands that legislative action needs to be taken persuant to co-operation with the Dutch government.

              [/I][/B][*][*]Implicit in this is MAKE THE DAMN ORDER!
              [*][B]

              I was not talking about Vasc.

              However, you mention order?? Order done mek. House and Senate pass the measure that was already cabinet approved.

              Again, my take was about getting Trafigura that has a history of effing up black people!

              Again - MAKE THE DAMN ORDER if you so desire!

              The Deputy solicitor general then goes further to ram it down the minds/brain of JLP and its leader BRUCE...just on chance that termites have infected their brains!

              [quote]
              • As there is no section 31 (2) order in force in respect of the United Nations Convention on Transnational Organized Crime, you would not be authorized by Jamaican law, as the Competent Authority, to give the assistance sought by the Dutch Government.
              Again - There is no order in force ...therefore if you so express a desire to cooperate MAKE THE DAMN ORDER! Do that to comply with the Constitution!

              Talk about TERMITES INFECTING BRAINS...????? [/QUOTE]

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Willi View Post
                Damn right!!

                People talking bout class warfare and colour issue, and then tun round and countenance bribery from a white man company that has tangible harmed an African country and showed disdain by that dreadful action.

                By any account, dumping toxic waste on ANY people would be reprehensible, so I dont understand how people who claim to be afrocentric are so silent when an African country is so crassly treated.
                That is a problem! ...not kosher!
                "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Willi View Post
                  Damn right!!

                  People talking bout class warfare and colour issue, and then tun round and countenance bribery from a white man company that has tangible harmed an African country and showed disdain by that dreadful action.

                  By any account, dumping toxic waste on ANY people would be reprehensible, so I dont understand how people who claim to be afrocentric are so silent when an African country is so crassly treated.

                  I say, any means that can be found to sink that scum of a company should be vigourously pursued.
                  willi, i expected better from you... really... the class warfare and color issue and afrocentricism and dastardly acts by trafigura has nothing to do with the application of the law or the support of the application and interpretatioin of the standing conventions and acts...

                  if you want to discuss those issues separately then by all means do so and you will find that we both would come down on the same side of the debate...

                  i am not in favor of any form of corruption, especially when it involves bribery of a gov't official to gain an unfair advantage which historically have never benefited the people in the long run... i have said on this forum, most recently the light bulb scandal that if corruption is found, people need to be punished severely... when it comes to corruption, partisanship has no place at the table... at least with me...

                  based on what i read, i am conviced that vasciannie was only interpreting the standing un treaties and advising the govt on the best way to move forward so that the govt would not be found in contravention of jamaica laws, u.n. conventions and existing mutual assistance act... that would the expectation of any competent individual acting in vasciannie's capacity at that time...
                  'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Maudib View Post
                    It appears the govt was seeking for a legal reason NOT to assist the Dutch.. against a sordid Entity with muderous activities along the coast of Africa.
                    that could very well be the case, but thats not the issue... the issue is whether vaciannie had performed with competence and exercised due diligence in interpreting the various un conventions, acts and jamaica laws and constitution and whether he provided the govt with the correct advice in his capacity as counsel... what the gov't choose to do with the info is their business...

                    if the dutch investigators conclude that breaches took place, and if there aren't any existing agreements to allow cooperation, there are established precedents in international law to allow them to proceed with their investigation so long as they follow the legal protocols and respect the soverignity of nations...

                    its that simple, and if the jamaican authorities find personnel of the opposition in violation, i am in favor of whatever punishment the jamaican law mandates...


                    Originally posted by Maudib View Post
                    When unnuh come in yah wid unnuh Garvey chat and unnuh slavery chat.. mi ponder is who di sell di slaves dem tuh di white man... not much has changed.

                    The 'beloved party' and its followers cannot even FIND their moral compass after 18 years of corruption, pilfering and genetics.

                    Well.. wi gwine point unnuh in the right direction and if it lead to a nice cozy spot under di prison.. no tears shall be shed..well maybe self pity.

                    Wi not even gwine feel sorry fi unnuh.
                    this is where you show yourself to be an idiot... you lack the capacity to engage in a meaningful debate without you resorting to your standard political drivel... speakig of moral compass... you wouldn't know what a moral compass is, even when its being forced up your ass...
                    'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      thats it in a nutshell karl... if they want to proceed, make the order... sounds to me that vasciannie is the one with the uninfected brain... why wouldn't any govt want this obviously brilliant mind serving the govt and people of jamaica...
                      'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well that is why Lightbourne nuh want him cause she and Bruce who is a lawyer interpret the constitution differently and think they use loophole to kill the investigation.

                        That saying she bought it to parliment and got the go ahead. I wonder how he would interpret it if it now that the JLP in power?
                        • Don't let negative things break you, instead let it be your strength, your reason for growth. Life is for living and I won't spend my life feeling cheated and downtrodden.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Baddaz View Post
                          willi, i expected better from you... really... the class warfare and color issue and afrocentricism and dastardly acts by trafigura has nothing to do with the application of the law or the support of the application and interpretatioin of the standing conventions and acts...

                          if you want to discuss those issues separately then by all means do so and you will find that we both would come down on the same side of the debate...

                          i am not in favor of any form of corruption, especially when it involves bribery of a gov't official to gain an unfair advantage which historically have never benefited the people in the long run... i have said on this forum, most recently the light bulb scandal that if corruption is found, people need to be punished severely... when it comes to corruption, partisanship has no place at the table... at least with me...

                          based on what i read, i am conviced that vasciannie was only interpreting the standing un treaties and advising the govt on the best way to move forward so that the govt would not be found in contravention of jamaica laws, u.n. conventions and existing mutual assistance act... that would the expectation of any competent individual acting in vasciannie's capacity at that time...
                          Didnt I say I was not talking about Vasc??

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            bruce is a lawyer? wow, didn't know that at all... i know quite a few lawyers and he never came across as the lawyer type... ma bad... just dont ask me what is the lawyer type...

                            as to bringing it to parliament and getting the go ahead... that could happen... the question is if the jamaican constitution was breached in any way to expedite cooperation with the dutch investigators...

                            neiher vasciannie's counsel nor the pnp govt killed the investigation... where did u get the idea that the investigation was killed... it wasn't... they wanted the requisite order to be made in order to facilitate cooperation with the investigators... if this gov't wants to set the precedent of cooperation without a negotiated and established order, its up to them... it come back to haunt at a later date on some other matter... when the rain fall, it nuh fall pon one man house top...
                            'to get what we've never had, we MUST do what we've never done'

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It was just like Alberta Gonzales them tell Bush them a way fi treat the suspected terrorist them as some loopholes existed.

                              These Lawyers are very smart and can find ways round if they wanted. The fact is if the PNP was in power it would never would have been investigated. I doubt any PNP will go a jail but the Dutch have laws on the book to put another nail in Trafigura and it might be very embarrassing for the PNP as this may have been going on for a while as well and names maybe called since the Dutch have no interest in protecting anybody.
                              • Don't let negative things break you, instead let it be your strength, your reason for growth. Life is for living and I won't spend my life feeling cheated and downtrodden.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X