Dutch Authorities think that Trafigura

[Willi]

CCC was a commercial entity!

[Assasin]

This is where the problem comes in. In the Netherland it is agains the law for companies to donate to political parties and I think that extend overseas as well. Therefore they have to say it is a commercial transaction and the PNP can't accept that it is a commercial transaction, they have to say it is a donation. If it is for commercial, what is it for?
If a donation then the company has broken the laws of the country they abide in.

[Lazie]

This is where the problem comes in. In the Netherland it is agains the law for companies to donate to political parties and I think that extend overseas as well. Therefore they have to say it is a commercial transaction and the PNP can't accept that it is a commercial transaction, they have to say it is a donation. If it is for commercial, what is it for?
If a donation then the company has broken the laws of the country they abide in.

Its NO donation. I still believe it is either a bribe or money that should have gone to the PCJ.

[Assasin]

well the PNP have to say it was donation, what else can they say?

What commerial activity them a run?

[Muadib]

"We always believe that we are best for the country and so ANYTHING that will cause us to be in power is therefore best for the country"

All who have ears let them hear.

[Don1]

CCC was a commercial entity!

CCOC is an artifice.

The Dutch are interested in investigating/prosecuting their nationals, not Jamaicans.
I would be very surprised if Jamaican authorities can get credible proof of bribery. This situation to me is more influence peddling than bribery.

Either way it is immoral and corrupt.... but the Gov will not be able to prove illegality under Jamaican law.

The Jamaican actors do not have to be concerned about Dutch legal action in my opinion. Maybe Trafigura officials have to fret.


Bulbgate is entirely different depending on how the facts come out.

[Muadib]

Suh how di Dutch gwine prosecute if dem cyaan find credible proof of bribery ?

[Karl]

People's National Party (PNP) not obliged to comment...

People's National Party (PNP) not obliged to comment on Trafigura
published: Thursday | November 15, 2007

Daraine Luton, Staff Reporter

( L - R ) Nicholson, Golding
DUTCH officials' journey to Jamaica to interview three members of the People's National Party (PNP), in relation to the Trafigura affair, could prove to be a futile exercise.
This is so because persons are at will to refuse, under the Constitution, to give statements to police or other authorities.

However, Canute Brown, former director of justice reform in the Ministry of Justice, says Prime Minister Bruce Golding and his Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) Government may not have to rely on the cooperation of the PNP officials.
"If you are saying that officials were bribed here, then under the Corruption Prevention Act, they can be charged here," Mr. Brown, an attorney-at-law, said.

Trafigura, which lifted Nigerian crude on Jamaica's behalf, gave $31 million to the PNP, which the party said was a donation. The money was lodged to an account linked to former general secretary of the PNP, Colin Campbell.

Trafigura, however, said the money was a part of a "commercial arrangement".

Bribing public officials
In a statement to Parliament on Tuesday, Prime Minister Golding said the Dutch authorities, who started a criminal investigation against the oil trading company in January, have said Trafigura is believed to be guilty of having bribed public officials in Jamaica.

Mr. Golding has given notice that he will bring a resolution to Parliament which, if passed, would pave the way for Dutch authorities to come to Jamaica to interview persons in relation to the bribery allegations against Trafigura. Mr. Golding has said he will make himself available to answer questions as he was the person who went public with the information.

International obligation
Under an international convention against transnational crime, Jamaica may cooperate with signatories of such agreement to allow for investigation of crimes. Such an agreement makes it mandatory for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police to cooperate with overseas investigations.

However, according to Mr. Brown, "In the same way that our police officers can't compel a person to give a statement, no foreigner can do that."

Under the 2001 Corruption Prevention Act, public officials can be jailed for bribery.
"If the Dutch Government have such information [that Trafigura bribed Jamaican officials] they can give the information to the Jamaica Government and the Jamaican authorities can carry out an investigation," Mr. Brown noted.

The PNP has refused to say definitively whether it would cooperate with the Dutch officials, if they are permitted to come here to investigate Trafigura's dealings.

A.J. Nicholson, the party's legal adviser, told The Gleaner yesterday that "we have no comment on that." "The Prime Minister says he is bringing something to Parliament, let him bring it. The Opposition awaits the debate in Parliament," Mr. Nicholson said.

[Muadib]

I not even gwine feel sarry fi dem...

[Lazie]

This is why I can have no respect for the JCF! In the real world, this Trafigura saga would have caused the launch of an investigation. All now the JCF (Jamaica Comical Force) haven't thought of starting their investigations. If they had done that they and the Dutch could compare their findings .... damn.

[Don1]

Youthful (or aged) exuberance in effect

This is why I can have no respect for the JCF! In the real world, this Trafigura saga would have caused the launch of an investigation. All now the JCF (Jamaica Comical Force) haven't thought of starting their investigations. If they had done that they and the Dutch could compare their findings .... damn.

Some of us tend to get excited very easily.

Just because there is an allegation in a newspaper report that Dutch authorities "feel" or "think" there is bribery involved in this matter..... this is no reason to conclusively believe that (1) the feeling accurately reflects the Dutch position or (2) that feeling, if it is an official Dutch position, is backed by evidence actionable in Jamaica.

I've also seen that some believe on this forum that because the Netherlands is a so called "first world" country that this has some special significance. This is symptomatic of our colonial inferiority complex.

The Dutch investigators supposedly coming to Jamaica have no power to do anything except request cooperation and information. Which request can be safely ignored without any sanction. They have zero power to enforce anything.
If they bring credible evidence of bribery... they'll just leave it with the Jamaican authorities for follow up.

Their country of origin is immaterial under Jamaican law and they don't have the realpolitik club that the US has over Jamaica i.e. to extend their laws here.

JCF can't act based on supposition, feeling or exciting newspaper reports. They have to act based on a credible complaint or clear evidence that comes to their attention.

Get real.

[Assasin]

A nuh Jamaican police you a talk bout brethren?
"JCF can't act based on supposition, feeling or exciting newspaper reports.".

[Don1]

A nuh Jamaican police you a talk bout brethren?
"JCF can't act based on supposition, feeling or exciting newspaper reports.".

AAh.... correction.... this should read "can't correctly act"

Given the change in government one would have imagined if the police had any shred of evidence charges would have been laid long ago or at least an investigation commenced.

[Lazie]

Some of us tend to get excited very easily.

Just because there is an allegation in a newspaper report that Dutch authorities "feel" or "think" there is bribery involved in this matter..... this is no reason to conclusively believe that (1) the feeling accurately reflects the Dutch position or (2) that feeling, if it is an official Dutch position, is backed by evidence actionable in Jamaica.

I've also seen that some believe on this forum that because the Netherlands is a so called "first world" country that this has some special significance. This is symptomatic of our colonial inferiority complex.

The Dutch investigators supposedly coming to Jamaica have no power to do anything except request cooperation and information. Which request can be safely ignored without any sanction. They have zero power to enforce anything.
If they bring credible evidence of bribery... they'll just leave it with the Jamaican authorities for follow up.

Their country of origin is immaterial under Jamaican law and they don't have the realpolitik club that the US has over Jamaica i.e. to extend their laws here.

JCF can't act based on supposition, feeling or exciting newspaper reports. They have to act based on a credible complaint or clear evidence that comes to their attention.

Get real.

Is bribery a crime in Jamaica? Is embezzlement a crime in Jamaica? The PNP claimed the money was a donation, Trafigura said it was a payment for a commercial agreement. The same Trafigura that is doing business with Jamaica ... if you don't see where there was a need for an investigation .... then .... in the real world thing run different.

If it was in the USA the Justice Department would be all over it. Are you aware that while Trafigura was going on, Tony Blair and others in his party was being questioned by Scotland Yard? Why yuh think the PNP should be treated any different?

[Muadib]

What have you said to refute Lazie statement ????

Why did the PNP Govt refuse the Dutch request ?

Now wi gwine see why Jamaica stay suh...

Give it your best shot.