Dutch Authorities think that Trafigura

[Muadib]

You don't believe the Dutch have any evidence ????

[Willi]

YOU dont get it. If they leave Jamaica with credible evidence, they will use it to squeeze Trafigura who will sing like a bird. They then provide that evidence to the Jakan authorities which is then actionable.

The first world reference you sneer at is relevant not because of any complex. it is relevant because that is the focus of OECD countries now. I have to be doing Compliance courses up the wazoo as the authorities here have applied pressure to everyone and companies are running scared. I know what i am talking about as I live it!!!!

[Willi]

Oh yeah, well read this:

Bribing public officials
In a statement to Parliament on Tuesday, Prime Minister Golding said the Dutch authorities, who started a criminal investigation against the oil trading company in January, have said Trafigura is believed to be guilty of having bribed public officials in Jamaica.
Mr. Golding has given notice that he will bring a resolution to Parliament which, if passed, would pave the way for Dutch authorities to come to Jamaica to interview persons in relation to the bribery allegations against Trafigura. Mr. Golding has said he will make himself available to answer questions as he was the person who went public with the information.
International obligation
Under an international convention against transnational crime, Jamaica may cooperate with signatories of such agreement to allow for investigation of crimes. Such an agreement makes it mandatory for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police to cooperate with overseas [COLOR=orange! important][COLOR=orange! important]investigators[/color][/color].
However, according to Mr. Brown, "In the same way that our police officers can't compel a person to give a statement, no foreigner can do that."
Under the 2001 Corruption Prevention Act, public officials can be jailed for bribery.
"If the Dutch Government have such information [that Trafigura bribed Jamaican officials] they can give the information to the Jamaica Government and the Jamaican authorities can carry out an investigation," Mr. Brown noted.
The PNP has refused to say definitively whether it would cooperate with the Dutch officials, if they are permitted to come here to investigate Trafigura's dealings.
A.J. Nicholson, the party's legal adviser, told The Gleaner yesterday that "we have no comment on that." "The Prime Minister says he is bringing something to Parliament, let him bring it. The Opposition awaits the debate in Parliament," Mr. Nicholson said.

[Willi]

That is the crux.

If Trafigura is squeezed to provide documentation to plea bargain for itself, who you think they goona dime out???

Prisoner's dilemma.

If I were certain people, I would be afraid, very afraid. This thing can go in any direction...from a teacup storm to hard jail time.

[Gamma]

that is elementary.....what was the brouhaha about?

[Muadib]

Don1 still trying to categorize Trafigura as tea-time weather.

I am curious about his motive.

[Muadib]

No, it is a 'complex'.

Mi si through Don1 LONG TIME !

Ever since him pop up pon di board is pure red flag a raise... ah nuh dibbi dibbi radar mi have installed...

[Don1]

thanks for proving my point

Oh yeah, well read this:

Bribing public officials
In a statement to Parliament on Tuesday, Prime Minister Golding said the Dutch authorities, who started a criminal investigation against the oil trading company in January, have said Trafigura is believed to be guilty of having bribed public officials in Jamaica.
Mr. Golding has given notice that he will bring a resolution to Parliament which, if passed, would pave the way for Dutch authorities to come to Jamaica to interview persons in relation to the bribery allegations against Trafigura. Mr. Golding has said he will make himself available to answer questions as he was the person who went public with the information.
International obligation
Under an international convention against transnational crime, Jamaica may cooperate with signatories of such agreement to allow for investigation of crimes. Such an agreement makes it mandatory for the Director of Public Prosecutions and the police to cooperate with overseas [COLOR=orange! important][COLOR=orange! important]investigators[/color][/color].
However, according to Mr. Brown, "In the same way that our police officers can't compel a person to give a statement, no foreigner can do that."
Under the 2001 Corruption Prevention Act, public officials can be jailed for bribery.
"If the Dutch Government have such information [that Trafigura bribed Jamaican officials] they can give the information to the Jamaica Government and the Jamaican authorities can carry out an investigation," Mr. Brown noted.
The PNP has refused to say definitively whether it would cooperate with the Dutch officials, if they are permitted to come here to investigate Trafigura's dealings.
A.J. Nicholson, the party's legal adviser, told The Gleaner yesterday that "we have no comment on that." "The Prime Minister says he is bringing something to Parliament, let him bring it. The Opposition awaits the debate in Parliament," Mr. Nicholson said.

Willi this piece essentially backs me up on my previously outlined positions:

My previously made points:

1. The Dutch are after their own nationals
2. They have zero power in Jamaica but can be granted a visit for talks with people who may or may not agree to speak with them.
3. If they have evidence they will give to local authorities for follow up.

I have no special knowledge of the case but based on my assessment of the publicly available facts and knowledge of how Jamaica runs, at the end of the day I don't see any criminal prosecution in Jamaica.

The deal breaker is if the Dutch possess some sensational evidence of a bribe that is acceptable in Jamaican jurisprudence. Absent that this is a storm in a teacup and will be relegated to St. Andrew verandah talk and regular airings on Perkins Online.

It's just an opinion. I could be wrong but that's my take on that issue.

Bulbgate is potentially far more dangerous for PNP types.

Respek

[Don1]

Get real

YOU dont get it. If they leave Jamaica with credible evidence, they will use it to squeeze Trafigura who will sing like a bird. They then provide that evidence to the Jakan authorities which is then actionable.

The first world reference you sneer at is relevant not because of any complex. it is relevant because that is the focus of OECD countries now. I have to be doing Compliance courses up the wazoo as the authorities here have applied pressure to everyone and companies are running scared. I know what i am talking about as I live it!!!!

Leave Jamaica with evidence??? Evidence from whom?? PNP sources??
You could only refer here to evidence from the PNP side.
If such evidence exists how are the Dutch to get it from the PNP? Threaten them with tulips?

You need to think this thing through.

If the GOJ has evidence then investigations/prosecution would have begun on Sep. 4 or as soon as possible afterward. So we can assume GOJ has nothing actionable.
Obviously any evidence on the PNP side will be unreachable as they will obstruct.

This thing only works if the Dutch themselves have some actionable evidence of wrongdoing by the Jamaican officials.

OECD can huff and puff all they like..... nothing will come of this in my opinion. Not because I believe the transaction was above board (the money was intended I believe for electioneering... the commercial transaction was a clear ruse) but just because of the realities of evidence and differing jurisdictions and stonewalling by the PNP.

[Don1]

Is bribery a crime in Jamaica? Is embezzlement a crime in Jamaica? The PNP claimed the money was a donation, Trafigura said it was a payment for a commercial agreement. The same Trafigura that is doing business with Jamaica ... if you don't see where there was a need for an investigation .... then .... in the real world thing run different.

If it was in the USA the Justice Department would be all over it. Are you aware that while Trafigura was going on, Tony Blair and others in his party was being questioned by Scotland Yard? Why yuh think the PNP should be treated any different?

Bredrin,

I am not saying what SHOULD happen. I am just expressing an opinion on what I believe WILL happen. This is based on my analysis of the publicly available facts. So this is not a question of how I feel the PNP should be treated. My feeling is let the chips fall where they may based on the evidence.

I just don't believe they will fall very far in this case.

Since I have seen no credible report of Scotland Yard talking to Tony Blair on this issue (i fail to see the relevance of the British connection) I can't comment on that.

[Assasin]

It might not be so hard to get the evidence from the PNP. For one Police in Jamaica don't investigate any Minister while in power, and that is why no charge. The PNP might start sweating as they are not use to any real investigations and you never know what Bruce have, I wouldn't underrate him as he is cool as a cucumber and play his cards good so far.

Trafigura also have to defend what is left good of their name and you don't know what they are going to say.

[Muadib]

WHOOOOEEEE !!

"sensational evidence that is acceptable in Jamaican Jurisprudence.."

Bredrin.. tek my advise.. quite while you are behind.

Stop trying to complicate the situation..

What happens in Jamaica when public officials are caught accepting bribes ?

The PNP is on record saying it was a 'donation'. That opens the door for bribery.. all that is left is for supporting evidence.

If the PNP had said it was a commercial transaction as Trafigura is trying to portray well that opens the door to some other serious issues.

It look like seh is you one don't si di conundrum that Trafigura and PNP Govt are in.

What you need to ask yourself is why do the dutch BELIEVE that bribery has occurred.. they must have SOME evidence... what questions yuh tink dem gwine want to ask when dem reach ? What is the best beach in JA ?

heh, heh.

[Muadib]

No, what you believe SHOULD happen is based on the past 18 years.. but in case you missed it.

WE CHANGE COURSE !

Bettah you seh what you HOPE will happen..

[Don1]

It might not be so hard to get the evidence from the PNP. For one Police in Jamaica don't investigate any Minister while in power, and that is why no charge. The PNP might start sweating as they are not use to any real investigations and you never know what Bruce have, I wouldn't underrate him as he is cool as a cucumber and play his cards good so far.

Trafigura also have to defend what is left good of their name and you don't know what they are going to say.

I understand your points.

However do you really believe the present administration (police) is in possession of evidence and is sitting on it? If they had it they would have acted on it already.

Trafigura can say whatever they want to say to protect their interest. So can the PNP officials.

The problem here is proving any allegation. That's not done by hearsay or uncorroborated, self serving statements. If all the Dutch have is STATEMENTS from Trafigura people.... the PNP has little to worry about except bad PR.

If Golding was REALLY smart, he would have waited until the election was called to go public with the allegations re Trafigura. The effect would have been nuclear.

As it was his Trafigura ejaculation was premature and its effect was muted by the time the election was called.

[Assasin]

again the Jamaican police see no evil. When did they ever discover corruption under any admin? You never know what them have especially when the commissioner is selected by a sitting government.

Remember how they muted a cop who investiged and spy pon some officals a few years ago?

See how them a bury the Peter King tapes?