Willi- As we said Hwy 2K can be a positive

[Don1]

You are confusing issues. Willi was speaking of heavy or freight rail. Jamaica desperately needs to have this reinstated. Some heavy/freight rail do include passenger cars. In the states, Commuter Rail trains run on heavy rail lines and use diesel units that can be used in assemblies to pull freight.
Light Rail is a different ball game. Light Rail is passenger rail only. It is usually intraurban like streetcars, subways, etc. Amtrak is morem like commuter rail and is run on heavy rail tracks. Amtrak is interurban and is not light rail.

Jamaica needs a heavy/freight rail service to be reinstituted between major urban centers. The only true obstacle is that many have bought large trucks and trailers and they want to make money for haulage and damage the heck out of the roads. They stand to lose if the freight haulage is more efficiently moved between urban centers and then distributed with trucks to smaller towns over shorter distances.

I believe comparisons with the US are misguided. Orders of magnitude different from Jamaica.
The point is Jamaica cannot afford 2 fully developed transport systems at the current time. We do not have the scale or volume to make that economical. If you build out rail and build out the highway network they will both lose money as they share the limited traffic. Jamaica has a very,very dense road network and can't afford even routine maintenance now.

Rail in Jamaica should be limited to bauxite & maybe some tourist/excursion traffic along refurbished sections of the legacy network until our level of economic activity justifies a rail build out. We're not there yet.

[Westman]

Wow! How did you make that leap? I defined light rail and heavy rail in terms familiar to folks in the US. However, I never made a comaprison between the countries, that is USA and Ja, regarding operation. The fact is that numerous countries with similar characteristics to Ja, use the heavy rail as a more efficient means of transporting freight between distribution centers.

It is clear that the life cycle costs of doing so will be lower than the life cycle costs of combining major freight arteral transport on the surface roadway system. The previous government also commissioned its own studies which confirmed such. The problem in Ja is two fold. First there is opposition from the folks who own trucks and who would be relegated to the shorter route distribution rather than the cross island transportation of freight if the rail option were to be made available again. The second is the initial capital or some kind of agreement with a third party for reinitiation and recouping of investment because the previous rail infrastructure was allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair.

No disrespect, but this is freight transportation 101.

[Don1]

Wow! How did you make that leap? I defined light rail and heavy rail in terms familiar to folks in the US. However, I never made a comaprison between the countries, that is USA and Ja, regarding operation. The fact is that numerous countries with similar characteristics to Ja, use the heavy rail as a more efficient means of transporting freight between distribution centers.

It is clear that the life cycle costs of doing so will be lower than the life cycle costs of combining major freight arteral transport on the surface roadway system. The previous government also commissioned its own studies which confirmed such. The problem in Ja is two fold. First there is opposition from the folks who own trucks and who would be relegated to the shorter route distribution rather than the cross island transportation of freight if the rail option were to be made available again. The second is the initial capital or some kind of agreement with a third party for reinitiation and recouping of investment because the previous rail infrastructure was allowed to fall into such a state of disrepair.

No disrespect, but this is freight transportation 101.

I would love to know even 1 country with Jamaica's metrics - tiny size, small population, low economic activity and VERY dense road network.. utilizes heavy rail extensively.

Jamaica has been trying to divest the rail network for over a decade - there is a reason investors won't touch it - they'll lose their shirts, pants and shoes.
Jamaica is just not a great candidate for rail...too small, too poor, too mountainous, too many roads to use as an alternative.

If this was not the case the system would have been privatized years ago.

[Westman]

Ok, whatever you say. Is this an opinion based on facts? Do you practice in this area?

[Don1]

Insight from the World Bank

Here is a link to a World Bank piece on trends in rail transport which would put Jamaica's position in perspective.

http://www.worldbank.org/transport/rail_ss.htm

I highlight one section of this article:

"Considering their cost and service characteristics, railways generally are best suited to carry -- and can effectively compete for -- bulk commodities and containerized freight for distances of 500 to 5,000 km, and passengers for distances of 50 to 1,000 km. Below these limits road transport tends to be more competitive, while above these limits either air transport for passengers and freight or sea transport for freight tend to be more competitive."

If we use the above as a guide... clearly in our situation heavy rail is contra indicated..... even without considering the other negatives that I had previously indicated.

There are development options for Jamaica which may look attractive but when the numbers are crunched... some things just don't work well.
Unfortunately rail is one such option.

[Don1]

Ok, whatever you say. Is this an opinion based on facts? Do you practice in this area?

This is an opinion based on facts. But just an opinion.
I don't per se practice in this area but I study Jamaica's development options exhaustively.

[Muadib]

Is an extensive rail network being proposed ?

Do you believe the current use of rail is adequate for Jamaica within a scope of say 5 years.

Looks like you getting confused again.

[Westman]

Ok. so you do not have first ahnd knowledge about ja's situation. You are quoting generalities from a report. I know for a fact, from my experience, that freight rail is a good idea for Jamaica.

[Muadib]

You are ignoring the 'vast road network' which allows one to get from one side of the island to the other in a breeze.

Air-Cargo Hub being proposed in South, Expansion of Kingston Port, creation of Esquivel port on South Coast. massive developments on North Coast...

Why would you need a Rail freight system ?

Heh, heh.. yuh gwaan tek Don1 serious...

[Don1]

Ok. so you do not have first ahnd knowledge about ja's situation. You are quoting generalities from a report. I know for a fact, from my experience, that freight rail is a good idea for Jamaica.

I can respect your experience whatever it may be in this area but MONEY talks.
Please explain why if it is such a good idea (and presumably "good" includes economic viability) investors have not rushed at the opportunity to get in the sector and make money? What do you know that they don't?

[Muadib]

Do you know what a concession is ?

[Exile]

True on the TT fast rail system. Present Govt. wants it, contenders say NO - only a system to fatten the coffers...personal ones that is.
Without a transportation POLICY, I can't see how there is any development. We bring in thousands of Japanese used-cars, pack the roads and then say we need mass transport.
In Ja. every druggist owns about 4 HUGE trucks, not suited for the mountainous roads (Mt. Diablo), so you can imagine how many in Ja. now....our Govs.(Caribbean) just seem to have no plan...just these knee-jerk reactions to please, appease and tease.

[Willi]

I would love to know even 1 country with Jamaica's metrics - tiny size, small population, low economic activity and VERY dense road network.. utilizes heavy rail extensively.

Jamaica has been trying to divest the rail network for over a decade - there is a reason investors won't touch it - they'll lose their shirts, pants and shoes.
Jamaica is just not a great candidate for rail...too small, too poor, too mountainous, too many roads to use as an alternative.

If this was not the case the system would have been privatized years ago.

U wrong there.

It should have been privatized way back in 1991. Investors were lined up and ting. Elements in the then Govt stopped it.

It pays to know people in low places. LoL

[Willi]

I can respect your experience whatever it may be in this area but MONEY talks.
Please explain why if it is such a good idea (and presumably "good" includes economic viability) investors have not rushed at the opportunity to get in the sector and make money? What do you know that they don't?

Don1, this is a foolish statement.

Tell me, why is Jamaica the only Carib. receipient f a Chinese Stadium that didnt get it for free?? Dont too argue with me on this. i wont dop names but a Jamaican bigwig rhetorically asked this question tonite!

Politics and personnel make a great difference.

Who is it here that sez, you dont get what you deserve...you get what U negotiate???

[Don1]

Don1, this is a foolish statement.

Tell me, why is Jamaica the only Carib. receipient f a Chinese Stadium that didnt get it for free?? Dont too argue with me on this. i wont dop names but a Jamaican bigwig rhetorically asked this question tonite!

Politics and personnel make a great difference.

Who is it here that sez, you dont get what you deserve...you get what U negotiate???

I believe my statement is more than reasonable. If an investment in rail is a winner as you and others seem to believe..... with the Gov flogging it for more than a decade.... it would have had an investor....guaranteed.

The Chinese financed stadium is not analagous to the rail situation .... a fraction of the investment ($30m v $300m+) and basically a showpiece not expected to give an economic return above carrying cost.... I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese write that off in return for some other consideration.
I don't know the secret terms of the Chinese deals with the other countries... that is irrelevant to this discussion.

Face reality.... rail in Jamaica is not an economically viable proposition If it is built someone will have to subsidize it ad infinitum...... just like all those stadia. Jamaica is not strategically important enough to the Chinese for them to gift us a $300m-$500m investment.
Now if we discover oil or threaten to recognize Taiwan.... that might change.