When the Shoe is on the other foot

[Don1]

Hmm so you equate Jamaica's Govt and Private Sector performance between 1940 and 1972 with the performance between 1972 and 2007 ?

Interesting.

No I understand why the PNP was in power for 18 straight years.. people actually believe that both parties are equally incompetent and equally corrupt.. a rather simplistic viewpoint... convenient but quite simplistic.

I am sure there is an inconvenient truth lurking...

I am not "equating" the periods. I am analysing them. Both timeframes have periods of PNP and JLP administrations. Clearly the governing party has more power to influence and direct the society but that tells just part of the story. We need to drill down deeper.

What a party does in opposition is also key not just the ruling party's actions.
Do they promote peace and unity or tribalism and warfare? Do they try to elevate their supporters thinking or just cater to the lowest common denominator? Do they stress the national interest and cooperation for progress OR division, confrontation and strife? Do they set good examples or manipulate those who are ignorant and easily led?

If the ruling party and the opposition do the latter (and they do) - that's a prescription for social crisis, political tension and economic instability....which describes Jamaica today. That is the fundamental social problem to be fixed for the country to progress.

I grew up in a PNP household but over the years have managed to liberate myself from the PNP/JLP point scoring stupidity and see the truth.

[Lazie]

Well, lets see.

1.

According to Mr. Shaw, he had previously raised the issue in Parliament some four years ago with the then government, but his request was ignored.

"I had stated to the then government that the World Bank has a programme where they would come and carry out a diagnostic study on corruption.

"I said to the then Minister of Finance that it cannot be triggered unless it is requested by the Prime Minister or the Minister of Finance, however they did not request it," he said.

"Bear in mind that each year since that time, Transparency International among other institutions have consistently been ranking Jamaica in unfavourable terms, in regards to our corruption index," the minister added.

Just last month, it was reported, according to the latest Transparency International Corruption Perception Index, that Jamaica has fallen some 23 places in its latest report, indicating that the country has become even more corrupt since its 2006 report.

2. When the then gov't was taking steps to make Cement Co a monopoly, what was the response of the opposition? What was the outcome?

3. After the Petrocaribe deal was agreed, what did the then opposition say to do with the funds? What was the response of the then PM?

[Muadib]

Narrow yuh call it.

Yours would be what now ?...What is that word.. Mosiah did help me out.. oh yes..

Quixotic...

[Don1]

We can only consider that when there is a reliable public transport system in place. Yuh cyaan build a house from the roof down.

What came first..the chicken or the egg?
First you make the policy decision to stress mass transit because clearly the country can't afford the status quo. Then you figure out how to fund it and how to change people's negative mindset about taking mass transit.

You do that by your tax policy like the Europeans do....they tax the hell out of petrol and car ownership (they pay $7-$8/ gal....even in those countries that produce significant amounts of oil). Then you shift that tax money to build the mass transit infrastructure.

These people (northern europeans) are rich but they have no problem taking buses or riding bicycles in their daily rounds. We are poor but would not consider this as a good option even if the facilities are good because of our class prejudices.

[Muadib]

Ah I see.. very convenient.

But since what one does in POWER in the West Minster model we practise far exceeds what one can do in OPPOSITION.. I suspect when one looks at the development of a country and who to attribute praise or blame I think questioning who was in power for how long would be the the approach... unless it reveals an inconvenient truth...

Jamaica has not really suffered from an ECONOMIC PROBLEM.. that is just a side effect of the real problem which is a POLITICAL PROBLEM.

Lee Kwan Yew called them Quixotic policies...

The root of all evil lies in a large acreage property in Mona and the rather damaged goods produced that have unfortunately weilded great political power.

Lee Kwan Yew sent his people to Harvard, MIT and Oxford (Not Moscow).. that was a requirement.. how else does one understand the REALITY of the world you live in and the strengths of those that rule ?..

I mean you can tilt at windmills forever if you want.. but people's lives are impacted severely....

So while you rule in hell, the majority serve in hell..

[Lazie]

What came first..the chicken or the egg?
First you make the policy decision to stress mass transit because clearly the country can't afford the status quo. Then you figure out how to fund it and how to change people's negative mindset about taking mass transit.

You do that by your tax policy like the Europeans do....they tax the hell out of petrol and car ownership (they pay $7-$8/ gal....even in those countries that produce significant amounts of oil). Then you shift that tax money to build the mass transit infrastructure.

These people (northern europeans) are rich but they have no problem taking buses or riding bicycles in their daily rounds. We are poor but would not consider this as a good option even if the facilities are good because of our class prejudices.

I didn't say I was against it, just that other factors have to be in place first. This admin is preaching productivity, how are they going to achieve it when they're taxing the hell of out of those that own multiple vehicles, yet the bus system is some parts of the country is so messed up yuh lucky fi ketch one. Then again there are the bribe tekkers that lay wait the robots and buses and dem nuh think twice fi empty these vehicles leaving the passengers stranded.

When there is a reliable transport system then. As it is, tax the hell out of those that live in town ... dem have access to the JUTC buses.

[Muadib]

What came first..the chicken or the egg?
First you make the policy decision to stress mass transit because clearly the country can't afford the status quo. Then you figure out how to fund it and how to change people's negative mindset about taking mass transit.

You do that by your tax policy like the Europeans do....they tax the hell out of petrol and car ownership (they pay $7-$8/ gal....even in those countries that produce significant amounts of oil). Then you shift that tax money to build the mass transit infrastructure.

These people (northern europeans) are rich but they have no problem taking buses or riding bicycles in their daily rounds. We are poor but would not consider this as a good option even if the facilities are good because of our class prejudices.

More man have more cyar, gyal and cellphone..

And no... that was not the opposition at the time....

[Muadib]

When was most of the infrastructure in Jamaica built ?

Dams, Roads, Light, Water Supply, Sewage Treatment.... etc.

[Don1]

I didn't say I was against it, just that other factors have to be in place first. This admin is preaching productivity, how are they going to achieve it when they're taxing the hell of out of those that own multiple vehicles, yet the bus system is some parts of the country is so messed up yuh lucky fi ketch one. Then again there are the bribe tekkers that lay wait the robots and buses and dem nuh think twice fi empty these vehicles leaving the passengers stranded.

When there is a reliable transport system then. As it is, tax the hell out of those that live in town ... dem have access to the JUTC buses.

I hear what you are saying.
My point is that you will never have an attractive enough mass transit system until you have extraordinary funding to build it and maintain it. This money has to come from somewhere because ordinary budget funding won't get you there. You will end up with what we have now.

If this admin wants productivity and efficiency....when you have good mass transit...your fuel bill goes down, no need for so many spare parts for cars, less time wasted in traffic etc. Plus it could help to bring down some social barriers and prejudices.

[Don1]

Ah I see.. very convenient.

But since what one does in POWER in the West Minster model we practise far exceeds what one can do in OPPOSITION.. I suspect when one looks at the development of a country and who to attribute praise or blame I think questioning who was in power for how long would be the the approach... unless it reveals an inconvenient truth...

Jamaica has not really suffered from an ECONOMIC PROBLEM.. that is just a side effect of the real problem which is a POLITICAL PROBLEM.

Lee Kwan Yew called them Quixotic policies...

The root of all evil lies in a large acreage property in Mona and the rather damaged goods produced that have unfortunately weilded great political power.

Lee Kwan Yew sent his people to Harvard, MIT and Oxford (Not Moscow).. that was a requirement.. how else does one understand the REALITY of the world you live in and the strengths of those that rule ?..

I mean you can tilt at windmills forever if you want.. but people's lives are impacted severely....

So while you rule in hell, the majority serve in hell..

Did not quite understand this one - reasoning seemed somewhat confused - so can't comment further.

[Muadib]

I am sure.

I obviously overestimated your capacity.

[Don1]

I am sure.

I obviously overestimated your capacity.

Yes you did. I have no capacity to understand nor interest in pursuing confused ramblings.

[Muadib]

To a man that cannot read.. I am sure to him.. a book is jibberish.

[Willi]

What came first..the chicken or the egg?
First you make the policy decision to stress mass transit because clearly the country can't afford the status quo. Then you figure out how to fund it and how to change people's negative mindset about taking mass transit.

You do that by your tax policy like the Europeans do....they tax the hell out of petrol and car ownership (they pay $7-$8/ gal....even in those countries that produce significant amounts of oil). Then you shift that tax money to build the mass transit infrastructure.

These people (northern europeans) are rich but they have no problem taking buses or riding bicycles in their daily rounds. We are poor but would not consider this as a good option even if the facilities are good because of our class prejudices.

No one sells gas in Europe for more than $6.50 a gallon AND the gas here is 95 and 98 octane rating...farrrrr cleaner and more powerful than the top gas in the US which is 89 octane. 89 octane is illegal here.

[Don1]

No one sells gas in Europe for more than $6.50 a gallon AND the gas here is 95 and 98 octane rating...farrrrr cleaner and more powerful than the top gas in the US which is 89 octane. 89 octane is illegal here.

Willi, check this info -- you will find that there are several countries with prices over $7/gal and heading for $8 if not past that already.

In UK they are practically at $2/liter X 3.8 = $7.60. Prices are highest in Holland I believe.



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