When the Shoe is on the other foot

[Muadib]

[QUOTE=Don1;55058]

While everybody busy playing politics, here is whatsee:

Other Caribbean countries that placed ahead of Jamaica in terms of FDIs include the British Virgin Islands with US$6.5 billion; Cayman Islands with US$2.9 billion.

BVI has popn of 25,000 and Cayman...let us be generous and say 60,000.
These are 2 microstates and they are outstripping us. A few years back, TnT used to have the highers FDI in the region, averaging over $2b with major gas infrastructure.


Those microstates/colonies are doing extremely well as offshore business centers....hosting pools of money out of reach of tax authorities in other countries....these numbers don't reflect investments in their real economy (mainly fat bank balances) so comparison with Jamaica's numbers would be skewed.

Jamaica's recent FDI performance is very respectable based on our historical trends and by comparison with some regional rivals. T&T had a massive spike in investment driven by its gas sector as the US sought near shore source of energy security.... very special case.

Might be more useful to look at Ja vs Dominican Republic which is currently in a growth phase. Our per capita FDI is actually higher than the DR as they have 3x our population.

This helps to prove the point that Jamaica's problem of underdevelopment/persistent poverty is not due primarily to money or economics but to our terrible social relationships. Fix that and and Jamaica will blossom. $2b/yr in FDI would be great but would not solve our fundamental problem.

Our condition is the fault of the corrupt politics of the PNP & JLP equally and the corrupt, backward, selfish PRIVATE SECTOR. Fix them and Jamaica will have a chance to grow.

It cannot be equally.

The PNP had been in power for 26 of the 35 years since 1972.

The PNP also fixed the Private Sector dem business first in the 70's then in the 90's... fixed them good and proper..

[Willi]

I tend to agree Don, but I also think that the DR has been getting this type of investement for longer than us, so may be tapering now.

BVI is rich beyond their capacity to manage it. I have friends with property there and the stories they tell me....Cayman looks downright first world. This was our backward likkle annex.

We are not maxxing out our investments (where are the Chinese?) aand even what we get is like pseudo 'hot' money. As I told Karl, the Hwy200 is not that great unless we develop business to justify it. I know oof similar white elephants in Mex. that locals dont use as it is too expensive. Jamaica needs to quickly develop the earning capacity that with make the use of this Hwy affordable to the majority and contributory to the logistics of a booming business environment. Dont forget, it is not ours, but rather a French export on our soil! The furture is bleak if we use it for consumption, disproportionate to the productive (business) use.

[Don1]

[QUOTE=Maudib;55064]

It cannot be equally.

The PNP had been in power for 26 of the 35 years since 1972.

The PNP also fixed the Private Sector dem business first in the 70's then in the 90's... fixed them good and proper..

2 POINTS - Jamaica's modern politics did not start in 1972....more like the 1940's-1950's with "self-government".

All parties practice politics in AND out of power and can be destructive or constructive in both states.

To me both parties equally culpable along with the private sector for our mess...just my take on it.

[Sickko]

Dont forget Seaga had gone overseas prior to one election and warned people not to come to Jamaica on vacation or to invest.

[Willi]

He also came back from Shanghai in 1995 telling the GOJ to move quickly to secure Chinese Mega investment.

So yes, he was irresponsible at one time, but so were other people.

[Mosiah]

argument done!

[Don1]

I tend to agree Don, but I also think that the DR has been getting this type of investement for longer than us, so may be tapering now.

BVI is rich beyond their capacity to manage it. I have friends with property there and the stories they tell me....Cayman looks downright first world. This was our backward likkle annex.

We are not maxxing out our investments (where are the Chinese?) aand even what we get is like pseudo 'hot' money. As I told Karl, the Hwy200 is not that great unless we develop business to justify it. I know oof similar white elephants in Mex. that locals dont use as it is too expensive. Jamaica needs to quickly develop the earning capacity that with make the use of this Hwy affordable to the majority and contributory to the logistics of a booming business environment. Dont forget, it is not ours, but rather a French export on our soil! The furture is bleak if we use it for consumption, disproportionate to the productive (business) use.

DR just started large scale tourism in the 1980's...they are newcomers to this field. I believe they have some nickel and other mining but not much else....rather like us. Don't have current numbers handy (too lazy to check) on their GNP per capita but they are in our range....far from great. I believe the advantage they have over yard is they treat each other better....so they have a good chance of leaving us behind.

It's tempting to analyse the microstates but they really don't interest me that much as a model. It's relatively easy to provide a great living for 50,000 or 250,000 people (Portmore sized) especially when your economy is run by colonials wanting to create a tropical haven for themselves.
I personally would not like that model for Jamaica (plus at this stage it wouldn't work).
More power to those who are in that position and can tolerate the colonial mindset and livity.

BTW I think Hwy 2k is visionary and a great platform to spread development in a PLANNED way throughout more areas. Planned towns with proper services etc...de-emphasize Kingston. The benefits are 10-30 years down the line IF we don't mess it up.

[Muadib]

Hmm so you equate Jamaica's Govt and Private Sector performance between 1940 and 1972 with the performance between 1972 and 2007 ?

Interesting.

No I understand why the PNP was in power for 18 straight years.. people actually believe that both parties are equally incompetent and equally corrupt.. a rather simplistic viewpoint... convenient but quite simplistic.

I am sure there is an inconvenient truth lurking...

[Don1]

[QUOTE=Maudib;55064]

It cannot be equally.

The PNP had been in power for 26 of the 35 years since 1972.

The PNP also fixed the Private Sector dem business first in the 70's then in the 90's... fixed them good and proper..

2 POINTS - Jamaica's modern politics did not start in 1972....more like the 1940's-1950's with "self-government".

All parties practice politics in AND out of power and can be destructive or constructive in both states.

To me both parties equally culpable along with the private sector for our mess...just my take on it.

[Gamma]

we need a "flyover" from downtown to stony hill with exit points. too many man hours lost in traffic on a daily basis!

[Don1]

Ja investment

[QUOTE=Willi;54965]While everybody busy playing politics, here is whatsee:

Other Caribbean countries that placed ahead of Jamaica in terms of FDIs include the British Virgin Islands with US$6.5 billion; Cayman Islands with US$2.9 billion.

BVI has popn of 25,000 and Cayman...let us be generous and say 60,000.
These are 2 microstates and they are outstripping us. A few years back, TnT used to have the highers FDI in the region, averaging over $2b with major gas infrastructure.


Those microstates/colonies are doing extremely well as offshore business centers....hosting pools of money out of reach of tax authorities in other countries....these numbers don't reflect investments in their real economy (mainly fat bank balances) so comparison with Jamaica's numbers would be skewed.

Jamaica's recent FDI performance is very respectable based on our historical trends and by comparison with some regional rivals. T&T had a massive spike in investment driven by its gas sector as the US sought near shore source of energy security.... very special case.

Might be more useful to look at Ja vs Dominican Republic which is currently in a growth phase. Our per capita FDI is actually higher than the DR as they have 3x our population.

This helps to prove the point that Jamaica's problem of underdevelopment/persistent poverty is not due primarily to money or economics but to our terrible social relationships. Fix that and and Jamaica will blossom. $2b/yr in FDI would be great but would not solve our fundamental problem.

Our condition is the fault of the corrupt politics of the PNP & JLP equally and the corrupt, backward, selfish PRIVATE SECTOR. Fix them and Jamaica will have a chance to grow.

[Karl]

Karl,

Our crisis is not just economic...indeed, its not even MAINLY economic.

Japan and Germany were lower and surged back fast...we have been on a slow and steady decline for a while...most notably under PNP administartions, though JLP ones were not that great either.

People still refuse to understand that we are in deep doo-doo. Can I make it any plainer?

I love Jamaica, its a wonderful place with some wonderful people, but somehow we have managed to negate every advantage we were blessed with and it is not obvious nor non-trivial how we will extricate ourselves and rerturn to what should be our natural level.

BenJ posted an article a few days back blasting Rubberbottom. In that article, the writer lamented how our universities have not produced any targetted scientific/engineering research with commercial applicability. This is a glaring ommisiion, yet we struggle to fund them and focus on making too many lawyers/political scientiest/ misguided economists and the like. UTECH/Passley Gdns need to be assigned metrics that measure COMMERCIAL outputs...similar to NCU and their Microsoft winning team. UWI Nat. Sci needs to be geared to do the same.

Our universities are NOT creative and not serving our interests. The best grads are snapped up in farrin and that is the end of them from a Jakan perspective.

Then there is the issue of social capital, a measure of cohesion in the society. We used to have shared goals and values as a people, but look at how nuff young people dont even know who the Wailers were! In another 10 years, perhaps we will see that 10-20% of younfgsters who dont really know who Bob Marley was. Maybe, I exaggerate, but I am sure you talke my point.

Good!
Makes you want to, as we Jamaicans do, alternatively laugh and cry with fustration. I may not agree with you on decline being "more under PNP than JLP" as I think, my way of measuring gains is not as narrow as yours. My belief is our people have always been in "poverty" - 1944 to present...it is the matter of "throwing off the chains" of that 'poverty' that has not occurred.

I wonder how many of us can say our great-grandparents or their parents where not living in abject poverty? ...or, poverty and slavery?

[Don1]

our thinking needs a flyover

we need a "flyover" from downtown to stony hill with exit points. too many man hours lost in traffic on a daily basis!

Know that you are kidding but....................what we need is to make it uneconomic for households to have 2-3 cars by taxing them heavily along with the gas they use and redirect that revenue to vastly improve public transport or have people ride bicycle.

Jamaica and the world can't afford the American lifestyle...not even America can afford it.

respek

[Lazie]

Know that you are kidding but....................what we need is to make it uneconomic for households to have 2-3 cars by taxing them heavily along with the gas they use and redirect that revenue to vastly improve public transport or have people ride bicycle.

Jamaica and the world can't afford the American lifestyle...not even America can afford it.

respek

We can only consider that when there is a reliable public transport system in place. Yuh cyaan build a house from the roof down.

[Karl]

BTW I think Hwy 2k is visionary and a great platform to spread development in a PLANNED way throughout more areas. Planned towns with proper services etc...de-emphasize Kingston. The benefits are 10-30 years down the line IF we don't mess it up.

It is this type of 25 years - 50 years planning that was never done that has us having problems with water supply, sewage system, environmental problems, - problems with delivery of health services, fire services, education facilities and institutions, parks and other recreational facilities, road system, etc., etc.

Have to say this: Look at the JFF Academy thing? What thought has been given to maximize on what we are producing and looking 25 - 50 years down the road.

It is not hard to see that no person with a drop of sense, knowing the current resources of the JFF and looking at the entire island/all our people...would even think of putting the Academy at Munro.