Paul Marin

[Assasin]

Mi is just a lover of ball and over the years I have found myself migrating from side to side. I am no diehearted fan.

I use to support Manu when Norman Whiteside, Alan Brazil and them use to roll some ball, Mi then use to support Liverpool when Johnie Barnes them use to roll ball.

Last year I thought Pool would step up but now I don't think they will win the Priemer under Rafa. They have a good side but he believes too much in rotating. Him rotate inform players on the bench and in the Prem when a man is hot he is hot. I like the way Fergie upset them last year as he put a team togather after nothing nah gwaan fi him the year before. I respect how Wenger put his young team togather but them need someone to draw shots from 30 yards out ala Steven Gerrard, Lampard etc. On any given day I will just pick a team and run wid it.

Call me wishie washie if you want but me just love some good ball and mi can't stand when a man a champion too long, it become boring, instead it is good to ride a upset to the top of the pile.

Watch out fi Big Sam and Newcastle in the next 2 years, that is a sleeping giant as Newcastle have the fan base to be a big club as it has developed into a big city and only need the right leadership.

[Mosiah]

Self-proclaimed wagonist!

[Gamma]

that's right...don't wait for someone else to use it as an epithet....steal a march and use it as a badge of honour!!!!

[Paul Marin]

Assassin, this is an interesting insight into your psyche; I am glad that you are at honest. On the subject of Liverpool not winning the league due to Rafa’s rotation policy, I want to refer you to an interesting article by Paul Tomkins on rotation and the perception that Rafa rotates more than say Mourinho or Sir Alex. Based on Tomkns’s numbers, it appears that the *fact* is that last year, Sir Alex, Jose and Rafa rotated exactly the same amount. Here is the link: http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/a_NG156624070808-1304.shtml

Now, after reading your post, I feel compelled to get on my soapbox and offer my personal perception of why it is that our great club has not won the League in 17 seasons. Let me say up front, these are NOT EXCUSES but just my honest assessment of the situation, which of course, is subjective and open to debate. Please excuse the long post.

With that said, I submit that Liverpool’s problems and failure to win the League Championship over the past 17 seasons can be attributed to a set of complex underlying factors, none more so in my opinion than the devastating impact that the Heysel and Hillsborough tragedies had on the club. Of utmost significance, was the related loss of Kenny Dalglish, the talismanic striker and player manager who left the club after failing to come to terms (after a year and a half of trying) with the mental anguish of the Hillsborough tragedy. In that incident, 96 Liverpool fans died in a human crush before the 1989 FA Cup Semi Final against Nottingham Forrest.

Dalglish – the Legend!
Four years before Hillsborough, Dalglish took over managing Liverpool after Joe Fa-gan resigned in 1985. Fa-gan announced his resignation just hours before the Heysel tragedy in the club’s 1-0 European Cup Final loss to Juventus on a disputed penalty (one which the referee later admitted was a bad call). At Heysel, 39 Juventus fans died in the stadium, also crushed when a poorly erected fence collapsed, supposedly because Liverpool fans rushed the Juve crowd.

Despite the toll the UEFA sanctions had leveled on the club (and English football) Dalglish engineered an incredibly powerful Liverpool side capable of playing some of the most entertaining football ever displayed by an English club. He is the man that built the team that became famous for “pass-and-move-that’s-the-Liverpool-groove” and was responsible for bringing our beloved Johnny Barnes to the club. It is his team that you supported Assassin my friend.

Then BOOM!!! Only 4 years after the humiliation of Liverpool’s role in Heysel, we have 96 dead in Hillsborough. Although Dalglish stayed through next season, he quit the club, mentally drained from the toll it took on him personally. He attended most of the funerals and frequently gave time to the families and community as part of the healing process.

By the time King Kenny left in 1991, his honours included (either as a player or player-manager) 9 Charity Shields, 1 European Super Cup, 9 League Championships, 4 League Cups, 3 European Cups and 3 FA Cups. That was over 29 major honours in a 14 year period including a double the year he resigned. Think about that for a minute.

The club clearly lost a legend.

Now, when a man of his stature leaves your club under those circumstances, it is a huge void that is left in his wake. Imagine Sir Alex quitting abruptly after the 1999 treble or the toll that 96 Manu fans dead would have on any Old Trafford manager.

The Post Dalglish Era
While Dalglish’s departure was a "body blow" to the club and its fans, the appointment of Graeme Souness as his replacement was the knockout punch. At the time he was appointed manager, Souness was managing Glasgow Rangers with mixed results.

Under Souness, the great systems and core values that Dalglish, Fa-gan, Paisley and the great Bill Shankly had worked so hard to establish, came to an abrupt and horrible end. From what I understand, Souness had no respect for the systems and core values that guided the team to greatness. There are many reports that suggest that he was notoriously violent with his players and staff. He was widely viewed as unpredictable, erratic and heavy-handed, and failed to earn the respect of his players or leverage the club's prior success despite the fact that he inherited a club that in the year before his arrival, had won a Cup and Championship double under King Kenny.

In his 3 years as manager, Souness won only the FA Cup. He left the club amid a torrent of controversy. In my opinion, Liverpool has been paying for Souness’s appointment to the managerial spot ever since. The systems, protocol, traditions and morale of the club were at rock bottom after Souness got through with us.

In a strange twist of fate, Dalglish joined second division Blackburn as manager after he left Liverpool and within 2 seasons, took them to the top of the Premiership in 1995. He then joined Newcastle for two seasons, winning an FA Cup and taking them to a runner up position in the League after Kevin Keegan (another Liverpool legend) resigned midseason.

While Souness did serious damage, he was not the only one to blame. To make matters worse, the board failed to deliver on their subsequent choices for manager in Roy Evans and Gerrard Houllier. Evans over 4 years only managed to put one League Cup in the cabinet.

To his credit however, Houllier delivered 6 trophies in his 5 years at the helm, including the historic treble in 2001. Houllier’s teams made genuine attempts at title runs and he should be credited in rebuilding the team which under Evans and Souness before him, had become a shadow of its former self. Ultimately, Houllier was dismissed not for his cup performances, but for failure to deliver on the Premiership. However, he had restored hope to the club and put us back on the right path. He should be given big praise for this, because without Houllier's rebuilding efforts, Rafa would have inherited a club that could have spiraled into mediocrity as Manu did in the mid ‘70’s or Nottingham Forrest did in the ‘90’s and Leeds has this decade.

Enter Rafa
So when Rafa Benitez took over the managerial spot at the start of the 2004 season, the club and fans understandably saw him as the club’s saviour, heralded by the Anfield “Gods” to take us back to the path of League Championship righteousness.

However, when compared to the squads at Manu, Arsenal and newly minted Chelsea, Rafa inherited a good squad, but not enough depth. Despite this, Rafa engineered a remarkable UCL Championship and FA Cup win in his first two seasons even though it is not until this current seasn that he has had purchasing power equivalent to Chelsea or Manu.

With new investment in the club and the managerial systems and support back on track, Liverpool now have a formidable squad, equal in talent and depth to any of its European or domestic rivals. The combination of new funds, great manager, great players, renewed optimism and greater than ever fan support have given Liverpool – for the first time in 17 years – the resources and circumstances required to win the league.

In my opinion, it is only in this current season, that we have had any real credible chance of delivering on the League Championship promise since the time of King Kenny due to a) the damage done by Souness b) weak management under Evans c) rebuilding efforts under Houllier and d) lack of funds equivalent to that of our rivals.

I am optimistic that Rafa will do us proud and restore the great tradition that King Kenny, Fa-gan, Paisley and Shankley before them, worked so hard to build.

In a nutshell - I would drive a truck over that mother****************er Souness's house if I had a chance. Thanks for your patience with my self-indulgence.


Lata,


PM

[DweetSweet]

Paul, thanks for that history lesson and your insight.

I've been a Liverpool supporter since 1970, and this is the first season since the Dalglish era that I have felt that Liverpool will win the championship title. The quality and the bench strength this season is outstanding. The starting 11 for the Toulouse CL game showed the quality of the depth, precisely what is need to mount a serious challenge and to get through the 38 games of a long season.

Walk on....Walk on...

[Paul Marin]

DSweet, you and me are probably the oldest supporters of any club on this board I applaud your insight as a supporter, because as you remember back then in Jamaica, all anybody could have talked about was Leeds, Arsenal and Manchester United...but mostly Leeds.

You might remember Leeds dominance during Don Revie era with players like Billy Bremner, Peter Lorimer, Allan Clarke, Eddie Gray etc. ...that was an outstanding club. I don't know your particular story, but I became a Reds supporter precisely because Liverpool was NOT LEEDS (or any of those other teams) all of which had ample following among my school mates. I like to think that the next 20 year run of Liverpool success was as a result of my support, but you look like you can make that claim too.

Anyway, I am glad you are as optimistic as me about this year. What we all have to pray for now is a bit of luck and hope that we don't get hit by an injury crisis. One thing is for sure, Rafa can't come with any excuses. Too much $ has been spent for that.

YNWA.

[Assasin]

yes mi youth dem days deh was the days. Dalglish was great. All now Souness can't redeem himself as a manager.

I haven't really thought about the effect of the tragedy on the club so thanks for that insight.

With Rafa rotating players, the problem is he rotate a player even if he is in form so a man might strike a few goals and get rotated out for no apparent reason. When the iron hot him need fi just let it burn.

[Assasin]

it maybe from my college days tha I just start appreciating the game and been a student rather than supporting any other team than the reggaeboyz. Instead I will pick a team and ride with it for a season or two.

[Jawge]

Paul I'm going to give you
your respect by talking to Dsweet. At one point JBC had me thinking that Dalglish, Souness, Whelan Kennedy et al were it in football. After seeing what Dr. Socrates & co did to Dalglish , Souness et al at WC 82., I humbly brought myself before brasilian ball (to learn and understand) never looked back since. Sorry to rain your parade Paul.

Matter of fact those with Arse now were big Tottenham fans in the Garth Crooks, Ardilles and Ricky Villa days. Manu picked the ones from liverpool. Sass you are not alone, truss mi, dem juss nuh bold like yuh

[Gamma]

stated on here before that i was a big spurs fan in the archibald ardiles GLEN HODDLE days....in fact when henry left for barca it shook my foundation as an arsenal fan..but it is clear i am a wenger fan!

[Jawge]

It's all good my friend,
everything is everything.

[Tilla]

Erm... Jawge, if you noticed, the guys were discussing club football. You always try to get a way to ease in Brazil in every conversation.

BTW, tell us what happened to that same Brazilian side when they met the Italians Paolo Rossi, Claudio Gentile, Dino Zoff et al in the next round?
I thought the Brazilian goalkeeper Perez was a rucks.

Brazil have caused us fans so much heart ache over the years, that we only watch the World Cup now a days to see what are they up to this time. The 2006 World Cup was no exception.

[Karl]

DSweet, you and me are probably the oldest supporters of any club on this board I applaud your insight as a supporter, because as you remember back then in Jamaica, all anybody could have talked about was Leeds, Arsenal and Manchester United...but mostly Leeds.

You might remember Leeds dominance during Don Revie era with players like Billy Bremner, Peter Lorimer, Allan Clarke, Eddie Gray etc. ...that was an outstanding club. I don't know your particular story, but I became a Reds supporter precisely because Liverpool was NOT LEEDS (or any of those other teams) all of which had ample following among my school mates. I like to think that the next 20 year run of Liverpool success was as a result of my support, but you look like you can make that claim too.

Anyway, I am glad you are as optimistic as me about this year. What we all have to pray for now is a bit of luck and hope that we don't get hit by an injury crisis. One thing is for sure, Rafa can't come with any excuses. Too much $ has been spent for that.

YNWA.

Leeds?
How could you forget the unforgiving and tough uncompromising Nobby Stiles!

Have to admit that I am one who has been all over the place with my support.

- Spurs of Jimmy Greaves and Bobby Smith...later Garth Crooks...Barnes, Rush, etc., and Liverpool..even the hated BoyU with Georgie Best's era...

...but, having seen Wenger's Arsenal - That's it - Wenger's Arsenal. How could anyone now be even looking at another team and thinking non-support for Arsenal? unthinkable!

[Paul Marin]

Assassin, I agree with you about Rafa's style of rotation. It certainly appears that he takes players off the park that seem to be in form. BUT...I don't presume to understand his methods. The WORST call that Rafa has EVER made in my opinion was taking of Mascherano in last year's UCL final, two minutes later, Kaka (who Masch had ruled out of the game) set up Inzaghi's second goal...and that was that. Still, he is the man in charge and has my respect and confidence.

[Paul Marin]

Jawge - Souness, Dalglish and Hansen were on that Scotland team, which was not Liverpool.

What I will give you, is that Liverpool was dismantled summarily by Flamengo 3-0 in the World Club championship in 1981. There have been a lot of excuses given for our performance in that game, but you can't argue with the Brazilian quality. That squad had Junior, Nunes, Zico and Leandro.

Nuff quality, and Brazil, Jamaica and Liverpool are the only teams I will cheer for...but the discussion with my bredrin Assassin as about Liverpool not winning the league and my personal take on the situation.

Still, me love Brazil and Brazilian ball. If it wasn't for the corruption, Brazil would have an even greater footballing nation...if you can imagine that.