Paul, Peter R and friends for ur reading pleasure

[Paul Marin]

no matter how you put it, even Negro as Suarez use it have a negativity related to it and it was directed at Evra.

Totally different argument.

Saas, whether you think its a different argument or not is not material. I am simply asking, if an Englishman asks where he can buy a "fag" on a NYC street corner, is he guilty of soliciting prostitution? Yes or No?

[Assasin]

no but if he said "you fag" and direct it at someone him guilty which is what Suarez did.

[Rockman]

Ah come on Paul Marin,if a white person call me a negro during a heated duscussion then he or she is being racist as far as I am concerned.....
In the end,refusing to shake Evra's hand questions his commitment to do so to begin with.
He thanks Pool for supporting him but redicules Evra because of the support he got from 'Daddy' Fergie.
Not exactly a confession saying there are proof of the things he would rather be called,how would he react if there wasn't proof of those things is THE question.
In hindsight,he is saying no camera captured him say ANYTHING,so he could have not admitted to saying negrito,at the time,how could he know that would be the case?
It is another example of Suarez retrofitting. Why mention it if it has no relevance.Another way to gain sympathy.
Such strong ill feelings for Evra,the question is when did it started?

[Rockman]

It was a well written article,the only mistake worth noting is Suarez saying transmit instead of translate,a plausible error right at the time he was highlighting not having a grasp of English(really its customs).
Suarez is deceptive.

[Paul Marin]

no but if he said "you fag" and direct it at someone him guilty which is what Suarez did.

Forget Suarez for a minute, we have established now that you and I agree then that context matters. Now, back to Suarez, please tell me where I can find "what Suarez did", and for the avoidance of doubt:

1. Please tell me exactly what it is he did and
2. Give me "with irrefutable proof" to support #1.

Thanks.

[Assasin]

Squarez in his best, explained what he did. Now Evra felt offended and reported it, It Evra had punched him then you woulda say all the choice words for Evra.

I can tell you that you keep on saying it is what they are used to in South America, you may know more than I do but I don't feel comfortable with been called "Negro, or any other word close to that and I know a lot of Domincan, Central and South Americans who use those words are not doing so in friendly terms so there is not much empathy from me. It was mean't as an insult and only because Evra is black, and that is the context that I see it in. You can't say he didn't say anything because he admitted as much plus if Suarez can't even remember he bit someone or don't know how he did it, what else will he forget when he gets in a rage?

[Paul Marin]

Ah come on Paul Marin,if a white person call me a negro during a heated duscussion then he or she is being racist as far as I am concerned.....
In the end,refusing to shake Evra's hand questions his commitment to do so to begin with.
He thanks Pool for supporting him but redicules Evra because of the support he got from 'Daddy' Fergie.
Not exactly a confession saying there are proof of the things he would rather be called,how would he react if there wasn't proof of those things is THE question.
In hindsight,he is saying no camera captured him say ANYTHING,so he could have not admitted to saying negrito,at the time,how could he know that would be the case?
It is another example of Suarez retrofitting. Why mention it if it has no relevance.Another way to gain sympathy.
Such strong ill feelings for Evra,the question is when did it started?

Rockman, i agree that if an English speaking white man called you "a negro" in a heated discussion you should consider them racist. I would too, but that is not applicable in the exchange between Suarez and Evra. You have to be careful not to apply our cultural perspective on a conversation being had in Spanish between two foreigners and even more careful to think we know the subtleties of what they mean in their own language.

That said, in purely factual terms, there is no supporting proof that Suarez said anything that was offensive to Evra in the language he was speaking (at least not that I have seen). And to be clear, you have to remove the fact that it is Suarez and ask yourself, what if it was you? I know I wouldn't want a court or tribunal of any kind to sentence me to any kind of punishment without proof - as far as I know, there was none other than Evra's testimony.

Furthermore, you have to understand the cultural context. Suarez claims to have said "por que negro". My wife is Mexican, she calls our 16 year old son "negrito" all the time because of his jet black hair colour. Do you think she is a racist? If Suarez was going to use a derogatory term in Spanish equivalent to a racial slur, it would hardly have been likely for him to say "negro". For example (I don't know for Uruguay), but in Mexico, their equivalent of n!gger is "rene". It is a huge insult to call someone "el rene" and it is almost always used to refer to someone with very dark skin. They use it derogatorily for black people, but also for other Mexicans with dark skin.

I remember one time a youth in Jamaica shouted violently at me on the football field "wha' di $#@$#@$ dis red yout' ah deal wid!!!!" followed by a string of "cl@@ts" (after a particularly rough tackle by me on him). To me, there was no racism there as I understand the context in which we in Jamaica use color to refer to each other. Seriously, who among us don't know someone whose nickname is "Blacka"? This incident in Jamaica was in stark contrast to one in Canada when I was called a "slimy black bastard" by an opposing white player directly in front of the (white) referee. So one incident was racist, one was not...both referred to skin colour. No card given incidentally, for either.

So that said, do you think I was going to shake that white guy's hand after the game? When we played them again later in the season, do you think that changed? There was ZERO chance I would shake his hand - no matter if Jesus himself did beg me to. So...to be blunt...I don't believe Evra. If Suarez really called him something that offensive, he should be the one not shaking hands. At least, that is the way I would be. Would you have wanted to shake the hand of a man who called you "n!gger" as Evra asserted? For me - no effing way!! It just doesn't pass the smell test. Sorry.

While I agree this is rampant speculation, I believe Evra realized he could have taken Suarez out of context after the fact, but by then, he was in too deep to retract his assertions. And let's be honest, Suarez and Evra BOTH are hardly the poster boys for model behaviour.

[Assasin]

." I would too, but that is not applicable in the exchange between Suarez and Evra. You have to be careful not to apply our cultural perspective on a conversation being had in Spanish between two foreigners and even more careful to think we know the subtleties of what they mean in their own language. "

Paul that is hypocritical. You know that some of South and Central American have the no respect for black. You wife call your son anything within reason. I bet if a neighbor or do the same you don't look at it same way. I am even upset when Black Americans or British try to stereo type Jamaicans so I can't agree with you there.

A one time a youth use a racial slur to me while I was playing college ball. and mi say "what did you say". and he repeat it and the next tackle, him and the ball deh pon a stretcher. The tackle was so time, the ref didn't give a card.

[Peter R]

Sass, what I am saying is that we can sometimes translate words and NOT MEANING... think of many Jamaican words that when translated into standard English do not do justice to the original term. I just want to clear that up.

In this case IMO, "negro" is not necessarily just "black man"; many times in the South American context its use can be considered even a term of endearment.

[Gamma]

Peter in the Evra case what did it mean if not black man and can you HONESTLY say that it was meant as a term of endearment?

[Paul Marin]

Peter in the Evra case what did it mean if not black man and can you HONESTLY say that it was meant as a term of endearment?

Gamma, I don't believe he used it as a term of endearment but that is not what Peter is trying to say. He's simply pointing out to take it as a derogatory and literal translation is inaccurate. It is as simple as saying "bro" in some contexts...which is entirely possible in the altercation between Suarez and Evra.

[Paul Marin]

." I would too, but that is not applicable in the exchange between Suarez and Evra. You have to be careful not to apply our cultural perspective on a conversation being had in Spanish between two foreigners and even more careful to think we know the subtleties of what they mean in their own language. "

Paul that is hypocritical. You know that some of South and Central American have the no respect for black. You wife call your son anything within reason. I bet if a neighbor or do the same you don't look at it same way. I am even upset when Black Americans or British try to stereo type Jamaicans so I can't agree with you there.

A one time a youth use a racial slur to me while I was playing college ball. and mi say "what did you say". and he repeat it and the next tackle, him and the ball deh pon a stretcher. The tackle was so time, the ref didn't give a card.

It is not hypocritical. I have been called "c00lie" in Trinidad and "c00lie" in Jamaica. They are interpreted VERY DIFFERENTLY in both countries because the intent is usually different. In Jamaica, you don't take it as nothing, in Trinidad, that is like being called "n!gger".

The point is that there is not enough data to say one way or the other that Suarez was racial. And my position on these matters, because racism is so distasteful, that you should have hard evidence for accusing someone of any form of racism. It shouldn't be on one other man's word alone. They used to lynch innocent black men for raping white women on the woman's word alone. Condemning Suarez on such a serious charge on Evra's word alone is the metaphorical equivalent.

[Paul Marin]

Squarez in his best, explained what he did. Now Evra felt offended and reported it, It Evra had punched him then you woulda say all the choice words for Evra.

I can tell you that you keep on saying it is what they are used to in South America, you may know more than I do but I don't feel comfortable with been called "Negro, or any other word close to that and I know a lot of Domincan, Central and South Americans who use those words are not doing so in friendly terms so there is not much empathy from me. It was mean't as an insult and only because Evra is black, and that is the context that I see it in. You can't say he didn't say anything because he admitted as much plus if Suarez can't even remember he bit someone or don't know how he did it, what else will he forget when he gets in a rage?

It was mean't as an insult and only because Evra is black, and that is the context that I see it in.


Sass...use common sense, you or me cannot sit here and say "it was meant" anything. Have you never heard someone in Jamaica say "the chiney one" or my "chiney bredrin" without it being racial? The racism that we have been subjected to or the words we use are not applicable. It is that simple.

[Rockman]

If memory serves me right England does not have a vibrant freedom of information act,do we have the whole story?
Suarez is a strange fellow,he was misunderstood by Evra,his manager(said to be reponsible for the changes in accounts...,and his lawyers that insist tgey can't prove anything and he should just take three games ban for doing nothing.

gamma quoted the following in one of his post.
"I’m not trying to pretend it was meant in a friendly way to Evra because clearly we were arguing. But nor was it ever meant as a racist slur."
If it was not meant in a friendly way the, it certainly should not be received as customary practice accepted by light skinned ....in Uruguay, are dark skinned people there okay with being called....?
Usually the problem is your personal feelings are forced to take a backseat to the findings of a designated body examining the evidencec(Travon etc),Suarez backers are disregarding that....
Suarez has reason not to admit being a racist,clearly he is aware of the consequences...

[Paul Marin]

Squarez in his best, explained what he did. Now Evra felt offended and reported it, It Evra had punched him then you woulda say all the choice words for Evra.

So on the other line of questioning. You realize that Suarez said that he said "Por que negro?" which can be translated as "Why bro? I agree it can be translated derogatorily, but you can't have that be your first assumption unless there is corroborating evidence (my opinion).

So when you say, he explained what he did, do you realise that he would have had to say something very different for it to have been an insult in Spanish? As was in the case presented by the experts, "Porque negro" (as opposed to ("por que negro") is unlikely because that translates to "Because black", which doesn't make grammatical sense, and therefore, to my mind, it stands to reason that Evra doesn't speak Spanish well, and could easily have interpreted Suarez incorrectly believing him to say "because [you are] black".

The fact of the matter REMAINS that there is NO EVIDENCE other than Evra's word, and Suarez's testimony as to his intent. Again, on racial matters, we have to be sure. We can't use one man's word alone. We have been fighting that crap against us for centuries, we can't make the mistake of making those mistakes ourselves. Mandela told us as much.

====================

To point out something else to you that you may not be aware of. Do you know what the term "Sudaca" means to a South American? Context, language and intent all matter. You cannot interpret this from the perspective of our cultural or societal prism.