I need the football gurus to explain to me why

[Mosiah]

big coaches like Arsene Wenger and Brendan Rodgers persist with players like Giroud and Coutinho.

For me, Coutinho is a complete waste of time. I can think of NPL players who are just as worthless with their bricky-boo selves but who can at least add some speed to their game.

What are these coaches seeing that I am missing?!?

[PeeJay]

You are quite confusing in your post in regards to misrepres

-enting mine. Why mi sey so ..now we are saying the same thing at least. However I would add that the two players you selected had decent games today.
I would add that today game for Arsenal I saw early that Ozil, the Ox and Wishere offered nothing in the game moreover Arteta has being left wanting since he has return from injury no legs in tracking back.

[Peter R]

I'm no guru and I didn't see the match as I was working and only had the sound on so difficult to comment on individual players, but generally, I like Coutinho as a player as I think he has lots of potential and he has youth on his side.

Where I think he lacks quality is in his ability to finish, so he should be looking to set up the strikers more than he has in the past. His attempts at goal should be kept to a minimum until he starts to make improvements (in training I would imagine).

[Mosiah]

I don't understand. You were talking about Ozil being a dud and I agreed. You mentioned you "saw this whupass coming", I asked, really?

Where is the confusion?

Not going to judge players on one match. I will leave Giroud alone because I really couldn't care less what he does for Arsenal. I just know that he seems to have become your new Bendtner.

But Coutinho...I have watched too many matches where he refuses to make the obvious play (pass). And just as often as he does that, I have watched him refuse to take on the defender when he should! And every time they sub him, the entire Liverpool game is lifted!

I could be wrong.

[PeeJay]

Ok in agreement on most things then

However I didn't mean losing to Liverpool with the high score was forecast by me..if you follow my criticism of Arsenal and Wenger since last year. And what I stated in the above posts... I am reflecting on our in ability to beat the top teams, our tactics against team after falling behind and timelyness of subs to influence games. Our inability to strengthen the team for this run... As the blind can see we wud of being out of sight with just few plugs...add the f ...ing striker and another early replacement for Walcott...that's the ghost of it fi me...we are losing this great opportunity due to money wise pound foolish approach..plus Wenger seem afraid to sub early none performers.

[Mosiah]

Got yuh!

[Paul Marin]

big coaches like Arsene Wenger and Brendan Rodgers persist with players like Giroud and Coutinho.

For me, Coutinho is a complete waste of time. I can think of NPL players who are just as worthless with their bricky-boo selves but who can at least add some speed to their game.

What are these coaches seeing that I am missing?!?

Okay - first of all, I am no guru, but I have been watching the game a long time and believe that the answer to your question lies in squad depth. I'll defend Coutinho's strengths/weaknesses separately, but if you took him off, who would you put on? The only other players would have been Moses or Luis Alberto, hardly barn burner replacements especially because Coutinho was applying Rodgers' tactics quite well. Even so, by contrast, take a look at what Mourinho or Pelligrini had on their benches in today's matches, far more depth and experience. The point I'm making is that you put the best option out there under the circumstances (strength of opposition, schedule, form, etc.).

Now, for Coutinho. What I think you have to remember is that Rodgers plays a very high pressing game that requires the forwards and the midfield to "swarm" the opposition when they lose the ball. If you look at today's game, they executed this perfectly. Arsenal's midfield couldn't get things going as our boys overwhelmed them giving them no time on the ball. That is why Henderson, Sterling and Coutinho are so valuable, they play in a system that requires hard work when they don't have the ball and are directed to get the ball back as fast as they possibly can. Coutinho for example, made the interception that gave him the room to execute that sublime pass to Sturridge for the goal.

So as I see it, Coutinho is the kind of player we need as he has the technical ability to play off Henderson, Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling while attacking AND the defensive work rate to get the ball back high up the park. I don't think any of our options on the bench are as good as he is. I also agree with Peter that Coutinho's finishing has let him down but that he has youth on his side. That's how I see it, but again, no claim to be an expert...but a HUGE LFC fan!!!
(5) - (1)

[Karl]

...so all we armchair...are now going to say,

I am no guru

but for my part Coutinho is just shy of great (player). He defends well and attacks well. He is strong, fast, technically wonderful and makes 'killer passes' blindfolded.

Excellent addition to Liverpool. His shortfall is not enough TEAM...but I have explained that in earlier post so I will not rehash.

Now my GUNNERS' Giroud is a puzzle. A very limited player who is strong...but does not play good TEAM (often tries to do what his skills-set do not allow and destroys TEAM aims/plays).

Why Wenger persists with him say in preference to Podolski?
The only thing I can think off is, Wenger believed we could defeat enough of the TEAMs below the current top 6 that would get us the EPL title????

Let's see a max of 28 x 3 points = 84 points...maybe?

[Stonigut]

Mosiah, I think this is hat we are missing in our analysis of players, the fundamentals of why are you playing on the team, comes back to, is the player productive in his role?

Giroud has ten goals and six assists in 22 matches in the Epl this year, can we find one jamaican player in any league with that kind of production, even the corner league, so he has almost a 75percent chance of scoring or assisting a goal in every Epl match, what more can you ask for from the man, what make you say he is a complete waste of time, if it is that ridiculous hairstyle, then I might have to agree with you.

Not quite the same for coutinho, he has two goals and four assists in twenty games, not good production and Liverpool should probably replace him if they could find somebody better in that role. But better will cost a lot more and clearly someone thinks he has greater potential so let's see if the harvest gets better for him.

If we start judging players on their production and their role in final team results rather that artistic body movement then maybe we may start getting some results in the hex.

[Karl]

Mosiah, I think this is hat we are missing in our analysis of players, the fundamentals of why are you playing on the team, comes back to, is the player productive in his role?

Giroud has ten goals and six assists in 22 matches in the Epl this year, can we find one jamaican player in any league with that kind of production, even the corner league, so he has almost a 75percent chance of scoring or assisting a goal in every Epl match, what more can you ask for from the man, what make you say he is a complete waste of time, if it is that ridiculous hairstyle, then I might have to agree with you.

Not quite the same for coutinho, he has two goals and four assists in twenty games, not good production and Liverpool should probably replace him if they could find somebody better in that role. But better will cost a lot more and clearly someone thinks he has greater potential so let's see if the harvest gets better for him.

If we start judging players on their production and their role in final team results rather that artistic body movement then maybe we may start getting some results in the hex.

I am sure Mosiah can best defend himself...but there is a saying the stats do not always tell the entire/complete story.

The question of the standard against which Mosiah is measuring the player...Giroud is being measured comes into question...and possible in Coutinho's case there are other areas...areas within which very important contributions are being made where his stats (...real contributions) provide positive compensating factors to be weighed against those goals and assists numbers you proffer.

Aside: My opinion is Coutinho is an indispensable member of this Liverpool TEAM although I also think he is using less than 70% of his current abilities during matches. He can...with present skills...work more at TEAM...particularly in the area of intelligent use of passing. That simple stepping up on better use of the ball and TEAMmates, I think, would 'up' 'pools goal-scoring, defense and %age possession rate... and therefore bring his TEAM greater successes/wins.

The matter of improving his skill level in various technical areas is a whole different matter.

[Stonigut]

Stats is not everything, but at the end of the day stats separates the great from the good, the good from the average and the average from the bad, we need to pull on the advantages we gain from analysis and get out of the 'feel sey' business. while I like Mosiah don't rate him as no big baller, he is the top scorer and a top producer on a team that was on the top of the epl heap until yesterday, we have to respect that he played a big role in that, no matter how we feel.


Hey guess what Karl, the guy you love to hate is absolutely an indispensable part of the Arsenal ability to compete when times get tough, when Walcott was back recently Arsenal looked unbeatable, his pace and nose for the back of the net is a lethal weapon.

[Mosiah]

I appreciate all the responses.

Regarding Giroud though, Stoni, I only mentioned him because I know a lot of Arsenal fans don't like to see him on the pitch. I did not consider his personal numbers, which you don't find too appalling, even as stats do not tell the complete picture. We are going to have to disagree on that, I guess. But since stats is your ammunition, how does Giroud's numbers stack up against other forwards in the BPL? Players like RvP, Suarez, Sturridge, Aguero, Hazard, Sterling, for instance? His ratio of goals per match, goals per shot? Frankly, his numbers are not great! Do the math yourself. I am flattered that you chose to compare him against players in the RSPL though. I bet Tuffy would post better numbers!

But, let's refocus, because Giroud is not really my concern.

Coutinho, played an absolutely splendid game yesterday, the best I have seen him play in ages. I had previously seen him as a brucky boo who kept losing the ball and did little to get it back. I guess Rodgers knew he had much more to his game and gave him a good tongue lashing before yesterday's match.

If Liverpool can get even 70% of what Countinho offered yesterday every match day, then they will be alright.

[Karl]

Stats is not everything, but at the end of the day stats separates the great from the good, the good from the average and the average from the bad, we need to pull on the advantages we gain from analysis and get out of the 'feel sey' business. while I like Mosiah don't rate him as no big baller, he is the top scorer and a top producer on a team that was on the top of the epl heap until yesterday, we have to respect that he played a big role in that, no matter how we feel.

Re: Stats
Buy in...that is me.

Hey guess what Karl, the guy you love to hate is absolutely an indispensable part of the Arsenal ability to compete when times get tough, when Walcott was back recently Arsenal looked unbeatable, his pace and nose for the back of the net is a lethal weapon.

Yup! ...against TEAMs that the rest of his TEAMmates papered over his drag on the TEAM.

Most often for our 'big games' players it is performances in 'big games' that show real mettle/fettle. Walcott can score in the big games with just about the best of scorers...but he pales in comparison with TOP OF THE WORLD players as he is a no-show on defense. Truth is when we are on attack he makes us play with 11...when we are not he makes us play with 10! That playing defense with 10 men is a killer against TOP OF THE WORLD TEAMs.

Football, contrary to Gamma's direction to me on earlier post, is not all about strikers only on the field to score goals. That he is a striker, his job is to score goals is not the sum total of a strikers job. Scoring goals is merely one element/part of a strikers job!!!

[Stonigut]

Points well taken, he is not the best, but he is an epl top 5 forward no doubt. Can't really compare across league apples to apples but the best comparison is that not even in our third rate league not one of our guys (Tuffy included) can post giroud type numbers even against lower opposition in the JPL which just tells you how far we have to go in developing players in the real skill positions and in playing an 'all for one' team concept.

Liverpool has just been truly an intriguing team to me most of the season, been following them kind of and the Sturridge/Suarez tandem and what they might do this week leaves me looking toward to and anticipating the Liverpool games. Let's see how Coutinho goes, yes he played a good game yesterday.

[Gamma]

For one thing they are seeing a healthy bank balance