Let me ask the Refs or potential Refs on the site a question

[Gamma]

oh ho .....

[Tilla]

I don't let commentators form my opinion on any incident. I try to think for myself.

BTW, last season I saw Newcastle defender Collocuni kicked Demba Ba in his face and broke his nose. It was a shoulder height kick and Ba was in possession of the ball in the Newcastle penalty area and bearing down on the goal. Do you think the referee called the defender for dangerous play and awarded a penalty? No, he didn't and Newcastle got the ball for a goal kick after it went out. Ba had to leave the game with a broken nose.

I said all of that to point out to you that referees are given certain amount of flexibility to call the game as they see it, not necessarily how we do. Just as how Hazard was brought down in your penalty area and the referee though nothing of it, it is the same with the Suarez play.

It does not matter what the commentators have to say, it is how the official of the game sees it, whether he is wrong or right.

Let us say it is poetic justice for for Chelsea with Suarez. I recall the encounter last season where he should have been sent of for biting Ivanovic. The referee allowed him to stay on and he came back to score the equalizer to cause the game to end 2-2.

You win some and you lose some. That is the game Paul.

[Karl]

As I said, the Laws of The Game says the referee has the right to decide. . .

Isn't that the use of his discretion there Karl? I mean, he sees what could be considered a foul, but the Laws Of The Game also give him that right to call it or not. If he did not see it as dangerous, it was not reckless etc, etc, then he decides. Those things are not written out for the referee, so he has to use his judgment on whether it was a foul or not.

I think Suarez's penchant for conning refs is catching up with him. Too may times he goes down and win penalties and replay shows that he was not or was barely touched. Referees will want to make sure before awarding him anything.

What do you consider discretion?

In the context of this discussion: I would think using discretion would entail seeing a foul and then deciding he has the right to either apply the law or not apply the law.

In the matter of fouls in the penalty-area - The ref should not be applying his discretion on whether or not to apply the law...but to apply the mandatory sanction or sanctions. How dare a ref...any ref run rough-shod over the rules that govern play. If all refs adopted such a policy in short order chaos would ensue.

[Tilla]

What do you consider discretion?

I am using discretion in the context of the referee is allowed to use his judgement in deciding whether some foul is worthy of call. You have agreed in your previous post that the referee has the right to make a call based on the FIFA regulations which says "if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force".

I have underlined the salient part of the rule as stated by FIFA. It has to be considered careless, reckless or using excessive force in the opinion of the referee. That my friend is where the referee using discretion comes in.
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dis·cre·tion
[dih-skresh-uhn]
noun
1.
the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: It is entirely within my discretion whether I will go or stay.
2.
the quality of being discreet, especially with reference to one's own actions or speech; prudence or decorum: Throwing all discretion to the winds, he blurted out the truth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, the first context is the one I am referencing.

[Gamma]

you think this is the end of it right? .... WRONG!!!

[Tilla]

you think this is the end of it right? .... WRONG!!!

Sometimes your brevity have a tendency to confuse. Care to expound?

[Tilla]

I get you now. Excuse me but I am off Work until Thursday. The lack of activity and the cold is making me a bit sluggish.

I know it is not done!

[Karl]

You are correct!
...but was that what you had said in your earlier context...or is this your second position?

Your 1st was --->

. The fact of the matter though is that the play occurred off the ball when Suarez did not have control of the ball to influence the game. How could the referee award a penalty like that?

...and Your 2nd is --->

I am using discretion in the context of the referee is allowed to use his judgement in deciding whether some foul is worthy of call. You have agreed in your previous post that the referee has the right to make a call based on the FIFA regulations which says "if a player commits any of the following seven offences in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force".

I have underlined the salient part of the rule as stated by FIFA. It has to be considered careless, reckless or using excessive force in the opinion of the referee. That my friend is where the referee using discretion comes in.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
dis·cre·tion
[dih-skresh-uhn]
noun
1.
the power or right to decide or act according to one's own judgment; freedom of judgment or choice: It is entirely within my discretion whether I will go or stay.
2.
the quality of being discreet, especially with reference to one's own actions or speech; prudence or decorum: Throwing all discretion to the winds, he blurted out the truth.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course, the first context is the one I am referencing.

__________________

Some would call your stances as evolving set...or simply as moving the goal-posts? You think?

Aside: Incidentally I took another look at the incident and Suarez was clearly fouled. Pushed to the ground by Terry.

If the ref saw it as it happened - Penalty!
...but did he see it? There certainly was tremendous movement on play by many players in relatively small space...a ref could have not seen the incident or not seen it as clearly as or from the angle shown on the broadcast. He certainly would not have had the liberty of viewing the many video re-plays.

Your first statement in the context used, that is, the matter of the foul being off-the-ball giving the ref use of his discretion to call or not to call does not hold as where the offense occured in relation to where the ball was is immaterial.

Fact is, if the ref saw that foul (you referenced) he had to apply the mandated penalty.

[Tilla]

Karl, you are backtracking on the discussion. If you review the history of the post, you will see that you are pointing to position I took before Peter R asked what was FIFA Rules position on the matter.

Please stay focused and follow the discussion? You were saying that referee's discretion had no place in the calls. I have provided you evidence that FIFA rules allow for it as well as provided you the meaning of the word "discretion" and the context in which it was used.

My goal post is not moving, especially not after I referenced the Laws of The Game.

[Gamma]

sanity restored....thank you Tilla ...

[Gamma]

i tried tilla, i really tried to warn yuh...

[Tilla]

Can't seh yuh never did.

[Karl]

Here is the lead post=topic of discussion! It is your post!!

Should Liverpool have been awarded a penalty for the challenge on Suarez in the box by Samuel Eto'o? Eto'o did foul the man in the box, but at the point in time when it happened, Azpilicueta had the ball under control and was heading out of the box with Suarez and Eto'o behind him.

If Suarez was on the ball and on a goal score opportunity, I would have no problem if the referee allowed a penalty. The fact of the matter though is that the play occurred off the ball when Suarez did not have control of the ball to influence the game. How could the referee award a penalty like that?

The entire discussion is in that context of your above post!

It is (your) post wish led you to suggest the referee has discretion to award the penalty or no.

Please note: In your post you had intimated that in your opinion the offense was a foul that would have warranted a penalty save the circumstance(s) described by you in the following detailed way:

If Suarez was on the ball and on a goal score opportunity, I would have no problem if the referee allowed a penalty. The fact of the matter though is that the play occurred off the ball when Suarez did not have control of the ball to influence the game. How could the referee award a penalty like that?

Each and every one of my answers kept focused on the topic under discussion - i.e. your above referenced quote!

Very important that you return to the ground rules you laid out -
a) The foul as you saw it deserved a penalty;

b) there is that special circumstance where you opined

The fact of the matter though is that the play occurred off the ball when Suarez did not have control of the ball to influence the game.

c)

How could the referee award a penalty like that?

Rule 1 - "a" is agreed! - offense for which a Penalty should have been awarded...save...

Rule 2 - "b" ...save your itemized special circumstance i.e. Suarez did not have control of the ball to influence the game.

Rule 3 - "c" Should this be seen as Statement of Fact or Plaintive Cry? - Your emphatic statement or questioning statement(?): How could a referee award a penalty like that?

The immediate above "Rule 3" - "c" could be interpreted to be the lead in to your later clear spelling out later in the thread that in the circumstance you described the ref had discretion to award a penalty or no!

Let me add that we should note that even in your last statement as worded it underlines and re-enforces "Rule 1 - a" - agreed! - offense for which a Penalty should have been awarded...

Boss, I hold up my hand and cry cree --- as you are hell bound on ignoring the lead topic and how the thread progressed and (I certainly did not try to 'hi-jack same) --- and let us face facts, it is not the first time on this board or elsewhere where 'the goal posts have been moved'. ...and it is not that important.

[Tilla]

Karl, you have to learn to go with the flow of the discussion. Yes, that was how I started out the discussion, but common sense should point to my position changing after I reviewed the rules as suggested by Peter R. If you want to still hold me to my original position before I consulted the rules in order to support your weak argument, then be my guest.

Come with me Karl. Emancipate yourself from the old discussion.
I thought your argument was focused on my supposed misuse of the word "discretion".

[Paul Marin]

I don't let commentators form my opinion on any incident. I try to think for myself.

BTW, last season I saw Newcastle defender Collocuni kicked Demba Ba in his face and broke his nose. It was a shoulder height kick and Ba was in possession of the ball in the Newcastle penalty area and bearing down on the goal. Do you think the referee called the defender for dangerous play and awarded a penalty? No, he didn't and Newcastle got the ball for a goal kick after it went out. Ba had to leave the game with a broken nose.

I said all of that to point out to you that referees are given certain amount of flexibility to call the game as they see it, not necessarily how we do. Just as how Hazard was brought down in your penalty area and the referee though nothing of it, it is the same with the Suarez play.

It does not matter what the commentators have to say, it is how the official of the game sees it, whether he is wrong or right.

Let us say it is poetic justice for for Chelsea with Suarez. I recall the encounter last season where he should have been sent of for biting Ivanovic. The referee allowed him to stay on and he came back to score the equalizer to cause the game to end 2-2.

You win some and you lose some. That is the game Paul.

Your example of Ba being kicked in the face is EXACTLY the point. WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD NOT HAVE CALLED A PENALTY? While the refs have discretion, there is a certain amount of common sense and fairness that the game expects of the ref, not unlike a judge in a court room. And while I agree suarez should have been sent off last year, you can't send a player off for an infraction that you (or your assistants) did not see...that's why I am an advocate of a video ref. Still, on the balance, Webb got it WOEFULLY WRONG on so many fronts it is shameful.