Klinnsman on development of US team

[Stonigut]

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/15...-semis?cc=5901



"We are trying to catch up with the big teams in the world," Klinsmann said. "It's all about speed. I'm not talking about physical speed. I'm talking about mental speed, passing speed with every player going both ways. That's what we're working to. This is a process and I think that process is coming along."

[Karl]

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/15...-semis?cc=5901



"We are trying to catch up with the big teams in the world," Klinsmann said. "It's all about speed. I'm not talking about physical speed. I'm talking about mental speed, passing speed with every player going both ways. That's what we're working to. This is a process and I think that process is coming along."

Does he believe that physical speed (I think he means 'speed across ground'?) is there is all his players?

Donovan certainly showed in this last USA match that he still has the wheels...Eddie Johnson has it to burn...DeMarcus Beasley is still purring along...but are the others on display in this Gold Cup blessed with enough to 'live' with the big boys?

I think Klinsmann thinks so...and in the main he is correct. I also think those he can bring in e.g. Jones and Bradley are (very) capable. This US team seems to be on the way to becoming a very, very good TEAM.

[Don1]

Does he believe that physical speed (I think he means 'speed across ground'?) is there is all his players?

Donovan certainly showed in this last USA match that he still has the wheels...Eddie Johnson has it to burn...DeMarcus Beasley is still purring along...but are the others on display in this Gold Cup blessed with enough to 'live' with the big boys?

I think Klinsmann thinks so...and in the main he is correct. I also think those he can bring in e.g. Jones and Bradley are (very) capable. This US team seems to be on the way to becoming a very, very good TEAM.

Foot speed can offer a significant advantage in football... ceteris paribus

Speed of thought or what Jamaicans call "ball sense" is FARRRRRRRRRRR more important than brute physical speed. Players who have that sense in abundance can create the illusion of being very fast over ground...when in reality their foot speed may be average.

Their ball intelligence/anticipation allows such players to continually place themselves in a football game at optimal points in the space-time continuum faster than others less endowed.
I've debated you on that before.

That's because the ball can move 10X faster than any player...but ball speed is only a fraction of the speed of the brain's input/output processing ... ever plotting the best solutions for positioning coordinates and body orientation inna di Space/Time Matrix .... woooiiiieee

It is systemic ball sense and not foot speed that enables Brazil or some other teams at their best to display a beautiful symphony of apparently "relaxed" ball play...but where their opponent can never seem to "catch up" with their movement... it would not matter if they were playing against 11 Usain Bolts

It all comes down to basic bio-physics

[Karl]

Foot speed can offer a significant advantage in football... ceteris paribus

Speed of thought or what Jamaicans call "ball sense" is FARRRRRRRRRRR more important than brute physical speed. Players who have that sense in abundance can create the illusion of being very fast over ground...when in reality their foot speed may be average.

If you are thinking of 'speed (across ground i.e. one facet of foot speed)' then relative to those on the field...you are bang on point.

Their ball intelligence/anticipation allows such players to continually place themselves in a football game at optimal points in the space-time continuum faster than others less endowed.

See above - FINE!

I've debated you on that before.

Oooh yes and you have continually missed the point that in terms of our Jamaicans (football players) and our Jamaica football TEAMs arriving at the TOP OF THE WORLD excellent speed across ground is vital.

That's because the ball can move 10X faster than any player...but ball speed is only a fraction of the speed of the brain's input/output processing operations

It comes down to basic bio-physics

Great! ..and TRUE!

When you grasp the simple fact that TEAMs with all other things being equal but save the X1 on one side has blazing across ground speed and the other does not that the TEAM with blazing speed will always win=will always be the better TEAM then you shall understand the trade-offs we in Jamaica will have to make...and why the TEAMs currently at the TOP OF THE WORLD
field X1 players who relative to our Jamaica TEAM always outgun us.

All facets of speed are needed for a TEAM to move to top world TEAM class. Being poor in any one area means 'cannot adequately compete' at the top.

NB: All I am saying is Klinsmann's statement as reported suggests he is (as/in a general sense) comfortable with 'speed across ground' of each of his players...and not satisfied with speed in other areas...and I mused on whether his TEAM as unit really has that suggested quality of 'speed across ground' needed to accomplish his aim.

I like Klinsmann's aim and agree emphasis needs to be place on his named areas but on 'speed across ground' throughout this USA TEAM...I say, mmmmm??? The proof of the pudding will be in the eating=we shall see what we shall see!

[Don1]

Karl...blazing speed over ground is grossly overrated by you

Blazing speed is comprehensively NOT a requirement for world class team play... I've explained the science behind that reality

If you believe that it is...sadly you're comprehensively wrong

Foot speed of Jamaican players has assumed an outsized importance which you have seemingly bought into...This is so because speed is cheap and widely available in Jamaica... there is almost zero investment required to mine for speed there.

So we have speed in abundance.... while we have neglected the other, vastly more important aspects of the game which actually would cost real money to harness.
So we try to use our great speed to compensate for and bridge the gaping abyss of individual player & team-wide ball intelligence

The folly of that approach should be obvious by now

[Karl]

I cannot convince you.

You would believe that you can do without [you (will) say, not vital/importance over-rated/etc., etc..] one of the following heart, at least one lung, the skin or even one kidney... so... you shall not be able to see that 'blazing speed' being just as important as highest of technical skills, tactical understanding, top fitness...the necessity of being TOP OF THE WORLD in each required attribute/skill for attendance at TOP OF THE WORLD as the game of football moves nearer to being perfected!!! ...you just will never be able to see progress as being towards perfection.

You think the standard of play by TOP OF THE WORLD teams is on par with that in 1930 and before 1930...no progression!!!

...so what is the point of discussion on what is desired aim?

Let's move on.

[World Fan]

'speed across ground'

Does he believe that physical speed (I think he means 'speed across ground'?) is there is all his players?

http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/15...-semis?cc=5901



"We are trying to catch up with the big teams in the world," Klinsmann said. "It's all about speed. I'm not talking about physical speed. I'm talking about mental speed, passing speed with every player going both ways. That's what we're working to. This is a process and I think that process is coming along."

[Karl]

'speed across ground'

'speed across ground'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karl
Does he believe that physical speed (I think he means 'speed across ground'?) is there is all his players?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonigut
http://espnfc.com/news/story/_/id/15...-semis?cc=5901



"We are trying to catch up with the big teams in the world," Klinsmann said. "It's all about speed. I'm not talking about physical speed. I'm talking about mental speed, passing speed with every player going both ways. That's what we're working to. This is a process and I think that process is coming along."

...as I said in my original post - Klinsmann comments as reported suggests he thinks 'physical speed' is adequate (Hey he said he is working on other areas and suggests not on 'physical speed.

...and as I said in my original post - I am not sure 'physical speed'=speed across ground is all there for the USA.

So let me ask you -
Do you believe it is all there?
Do you believe the USA has great

physical speed?

[Karl]

Foot speed can offer a significant advantage in football... ceteris paribus

Speed of thought or what Jamaicans call "ball sense" is FARRRRRRRRRRR more important than brute physical speed. Players who have that sense in abundance can create the illusion of being very fast over ground...when in reality their foot speed may be average.

Their ball intelligence/anticipation allows such players to continually place themselves in a football game at optimal points in the space-time continuum faster than others less endowed.
I've debated you on that before.

That's because the ball can move 10X faster than any player...but ball speed is only a fraction of the speed of the brain's input/output processing ... ever plotting the best solutions for positioning coordinates and body orientation inna di Space/Time Matrix .... woooiiiieee

It is systemic ball sense and not foot speed that enables Brazil or some other teams at their best to display a beautiful symphony of apparently "relaxed" ball play...but where their opponent can never seem to "catch up" with their movement... it would not matter if they were playing against 11 Usain Bolts

It all comes down to basic bio-physics

'Foot speed'?

I know what mean when you say 'foot speed' in your post.
However at times we use that term 'foot speed' interchangeable with 'fast feet' or 'quick feet'...and when we do we do not mean 'speed across ground' or if we were understanding Klinsmann, "physical speed", we mean the ability to use the ball quickly or feign quickly --- e.g. do very, very fast 'step overs' or otherwise use the feet swiftly in process of beating an opponent one-on-one....not out-pacing an opponent.

...and to prevent confusing readers of my posts on exactly which speed I am referring ...I introduced 'speed across ground' for covering of distance/ground and use the easily understood 'quick feet' or 'fast feet' to reference e.g. the quick step overs, etc.

[Stonigut]

Klinnsman specifically refers to "not physical speed" only because he is trying to make a specific point and most people when you talk about speed think of that first, so his intent is to guide our thought away from physical speed as that is already a given advantage that we all agree upon, that possession of that along with everything else gives an uncommon competitive advantage to its possessor. As some point out the ball can be moved much faster than players, the issue is not always when a team has possession, the greatest opportunity for strikes andcounterstrikes comes when no one has the ball and the team that wins the consistent loose ball does so through a combination of physical speed and strength that cannot be overcome if you do not have it as we saw in Brazil Spain we saw a finesse side get manhandled by a more physical, fast team, that will never change, no matter what, strength and speed combination is an unbelievable advantage on any field in any sport.


What Klinnsman is talking about is as important and I have noticed this is the advantage that Spain has developed the speed of though, the speed of decision, the culture of passing even in tight lanes that seem to be risky does not seem to be a risk with Spain as the speed of decision making, excellent touch and passing almost eliminates the risk, the counter strike to that is they must be made to feel physically uncomfortable to disrupt this rhythm, they must feel heat in their space, so the decision making is not about just the ball and team mates it is about theman pressuring my space and creating pressure.

That is why closing space is so important and pressuring on defense can let what is an inferior talent team play way above their potential by using superior athletes and why at the end of the day all other things being somewhat equal as Don 1 says physical speed becomes the difference maker, because you cannot buy it you cannot create it, you cannot acquire it.

[Don1]

=Karl;435930]I cannot convince you.

You would believe that you can do without [you (will) say, not vital/importance over-rated/etc., etc..] one of the following heart, at least one lung, the skin or even one kidney... so... you shall not be able to see that 'blazing speed' being just as important as highest of technical skills, tactical understanding, top fitness...the necessity of being TOP OF THE WORLD in each required attribute/skill for attendance at TOP OF THE WORLD as the game of football moves nearer to being perfected!!! ...you just will never be able to see progress as being towards perfection.

1. Yes I believe a player's heart, lung, kidney etc are all important prerequisites for great play

2. Blazing foot speed is not such a prerequisite...but can be an asset of course

3. I posted a list some time ago of the 50 fastest players at the last World Cup.... NONE of the World's 50 top rated players was on that list.
So objective data supports my thesis...no?
So I have provided data and also presented a scientific theory (my earlier relative ball/brain speed movement matrix... I haven't seen any refutation by the many experts here

You think the standard of play by TOP OF THE WORLD teams is on par with that in 1930 and before 1930...no progression!!!

I don't see the relevance. Everything in nature is relative...nuh Einstein mek up dat?

Of course the standard of play has improved over time... that's the nature of humanity

...so what is the point of discussion on what is desired aim?

Rum talk... nuh Rum Bar wi inna

[Don1]

This explanation has left me more confused about what you really mean

[World Fan]

[Karl]

Klinnsman specifically refers to "not physical speed" only because he is trying to make a specific point and most people when you talk about speed think of that first, so his intent is to guide our thought away from physical speed as that is already a given advantage that we all agree upon, that possession of that along with everything else gives an uncommon competitive advantage to its possessor. As some point out the ball can be moved much faster than players, the issue is not always when a team has possession, the greatest opportunity for strikes andcounterstrikes comes when no one has the ball and the team that wins the consistent loose ball does so through a combination of physical speed and strength that cannot be overcome if you do not have it as we saw in Brazil Spain we saw a finesse side get manhandled by a more physical, fast team, that will never change, no matter what, strength and speed combination is an unbelievable advantage on any field in any sport.


What Klinnsman is talking about is as important and I have noticed this is the advantage that Spain has developed the speed of though, the speed of decision, the culture of passing even in tight lanes that seem to be risky does not seem to be a risk with Spain as the speed of decision making, excellent touch and passing almost eliminates the risk, the counter strike to that is they must be made to feel physically uncomfortable to disrupt this rhythm, they must feel heat in their space, so the decision making is not about just the ball and team mates it is about theman pressuring my space and creating pressure.

That is why closing space is so important and pressuring on defense can let what is an inferior talent team play way above their potential by using superior athletes and why at the end of the day all other things being somewhat equal as Don 1 says physical speed becomes the difference maker, because you cannot buy it you cannot create it, you cannot acquire it.

Great post!
...in lock step with what I got from the reported comments of Klinsmann...save: my musing (my uncertainty) was on whether or not Klinsmann was asking us to ignore 'physical speed'='speed across ground'...
as interpreted by me that his thinking may be that the USA has - not just specific to his Gold Cup squad but his best selections=his World Cup squad - that 'physical speed'='speed across ground' in abundance.

Following on that thought/that musing - I therefore asked the question; does his USA really have that 'physical speed'='speed across ground'?

Don1 then mixed into(?)...ignored my question(?) and went on about a old discussion we have had -

Totally new area of discussion: A return to an old discussion or continuation of an old discussion: Place of physical speed/speed across ground in TEAM selection, top world football, etc?

- and gave the thought that 'physical speed'/'speed across ground' was not all that as it could be overcome or negated by speed of thought. It is his usual 'tunnel vision' response...as he totally ignores -
a) 'all other things being equal' among players and among TEAMs;

b) the importance of TEAM managers/TEAM administrators search for absolute best players/creation of absolute best TEAM...

...and what that search has got us i.e. the Germany's, Spains, Brazils, etc. and at the club level the Barcelonas, FC Bayern Munchens, etc. all TOP OF THE WORLD TEAMs i.e. each with TEAM comprising group of players where each and every player when compared to only other TOP OF THE WORLD players are extremely fast, have 'fast feet', 'fast thinkers, act swiftly, technically skilled, tactically astute and physically superb specimens.

I am thinking that our aim is a Jamaica TEAM (...and on world-wide top world teams comparison at each of the various age-groups, Jamaica TEAM) which can compete at that TOP OF THE WORLD level.

It (absolutely) makes no sense to ignore or relegate any of those very important attributes/skills to second class status. We must seek to select and develop players who all have every one of those attributes (as per current TOP OF THE WORLD TEAMs and aim at surpassing the standard in each vital attribute). When all is said, the world moves on and our younger TEAMs when they 'graduate' and each player 'graduates' to the national senior TEAM level will have to face new higher standards of play than currently holds.

Let me repeat for those who may have missed it in my original post and
in my subsequent posts - It is the above line of thought on necessary player 'skills set' that I wondered on...had me musing/wondering on what Klinsmann was (in totality of his comments) asking us to think on.

Aside: Sure we have (Jamaica has...) a dilemma - that when compared to that which currently holds at CONCACAF Hexagonal level and beyond
only a compromise on/trade-off on quality and quantity of players with varying degrees of competence in each of the vital skills will do. We just do not have the quality of or quantity of players with necessary skills...so we make do.

The gap in ratings on each necessary attribute/skill (found in the Jamaica player) when compared to that found in TOP OF THE WORLD players and in TOP OF THE WORLD TEAMs is (as we all see) huge. That is why there is this heated discourse on say, whether or not Hue should have a place in TEAM REGGAEBOYZ.

There is no argument about Hue's ability to pass the ball or create goals at the Jamaica NPL or CFU level. He has proven himself at those levels time and time again. The discussion is about his effectiveness at levels higher than those 1st form and 2nd form levels.

His effectiveness as demonstrated at the CONCACAF Hexagonal levels and subjective musings on what should be expected at even higher levels..i.e. say in a play-off for 4th place in the Hex and a place at the 2014 Wo4rld Cup Finals and his usefulness at the 2014 World Cup Finals if we are fortunate enough to arrive there is where the discussion takes place.