Starting 11 if it was my side!

[Tilla]

Anyway, I see you still missing my point. With some teams and some coaches, Austin and Gardner would get rejected. One will have more success when they find the opportunity which is a fit in most cases and where the coach likes the player.

Keammar Daley for example was liked by Preston, but when they had a change of coach, the new man did not see Daley as fitting into his plans so he is sidelined. Another example is Chelsea's Oriol Romeu, the Spanish midfielder and player on the Spain national Under-23 side and former Barcelona player. He was a favorite of Villas Boas and was getting a lot of game and really looking the part for a young midfielder. Villas Boas got fired and Di Matteo was installed as manager. Romeu became almost non existent under Di Matteo, just because he did not see him as fitting into his plans and how he Di Matteo wanted the team to play.

Anyway, going to my bed now. Good noght.

[Stonigut]

Tills, I am not missing your point, I see it a little bit. Somewhere along the line the man them have to take responsibility for their failings as well and it cannot be always that somebody didn't like them, that is too easy and convenient. When you get a shot you have to work it till death and to give excuses bout running and cold and man never like them is weak. You get a challenge regardless of place and time and you adapt to it because if you don't you may not get another shot, it is s simple as that.

[Tilla]

Anyway, you continue to miss the point. Gardner and Austin are not perfect players by any stretch of the imagination. They would not be a perfect fit for other teams which would cause other teams to come knocking down Bolton's or Leeds' doors. Gardner played for 11 to 12 seasons at Bolton, got relegated with the team to the Championship and got promoted back to the EPL. I may be wrong, but I do not recall any other team making a bid for him even during that time when he was in the Championship.

Austin is now in the Championship, let us see if his team does not get promoted to the EPL if other teams from the top league (EPL) will come running for him.

When I pointed out to you that although Wenger turned down Yaya Toure, Yaya ended up with Barcelona and became an even bigger name. My point is, in a lot of situations, coaches personal preferences have a lot to do with a player getting signed and it not necessarily that the player is indisciplined or no good. I could go on and cite more examples, but I do not think you will be convinced anyway as I can see you are digging in your heels on this one.

[Stonigut]

Tilla I am missing your point because you are not understanding mine. Ok outside of anecdotal, one off types situations because those do exist.

Austin and gardener are not Ronaldo and messi maybe they are not even rio Ferdinand and Essien but they are emotionally mature players who can quickly assess the challenge in front of them make the necessary adjustments and fit in anywhere. I do not believe the true value of a player is how attractive he looks to the world, in a world where perceived value counts for more than actual value, as you cannot truly estimate actual value from afar, thus your concept f worth based on perceived value of managers running them down is not where I am going, I am talking about real value to the organization that you are in, in real time, everyday, producing, working hard, building relationships and team chemistry and making 1+1 = 3 this is what Austin and gardener do and that explains their longevity even through injury the team stands with them as their true value is greater than the perceived value to the world.


Yaya is a talented guy but it was probably that same immaturity that led wenger to step back in a world where he has choice and competition is stiff,everybody makes mistakes but you don't hear yaya complaining about cold and running and re-re-re him move on and made the adjustment and proved he was worth more than the manager saw, our guys are not doing that, they are going to pro clubs, failing horribly and they are not getting other chances and sometimes when they do they are failing again. Yay a is the exception and our players are the rule they are not getting the second shot in some cases and when they do they make nothing of it, these things are emotional immaturity, these guys are not ready to sacrifice and do whatever it takes to make it that is why I have such overwhelming respect for yard ballers that come to foreign clubs and stick, Richards, Cummings,Marshall, Williams, Austin gardener etc and that s why the base of my yard team starts with those warriors Everytime. This is why at the end of the day a less talented English baller is a better fit that a highly talented but not so mature and disciplined local baller, we do have diamonds in the rough but finding them is hard and the real difference is not the ball skills but the emotional skills.

[Don1]

Your theory is flawed. Players with the temperament & skill that fit in "anywhere" as in a "wide variety of teams" have characteristics that are great for their career..... they will tend to have many opportunities. However those characteristics are irrelevant for individual teams.

A team needs players that fit in with their team...period. Nothing else should matter to a team or its management.
Jamaica for example should be entirely unconcerned about how players are able to fit in with a variety of clubs of whatever level...only about the job they do on the field for Jamaica,

You overburden the argument with inconsequential theory....intemperate fluff

[Stonigut]

Absolutely you are making my point, players must adjust to their environment, Tilla is making the point that players special needs means that player must be matched to team, which is the cart leading the horse.

If a team picks you or you are on a team for whatever reason then you must adapt your game to the circumstance.

Anyway the argument on this has been long thus the seemingly scattered points.

[Don1]

That's not the point I'm making

The discussion I'm addressing is about players who should represent Jamaica and the criteria that should be used in that decision.... that's not a function decided by players but by the coach so his is the perspective that is germane to me

What is important is how they are able to fit into the Jamaica team and perform the role required by the coach

How players are able to fit into a variety of EPL or Championship or whatever other teams is inconsequential for Jamaica....merely an interesting artifact

We have seen that movie in the past where various Jamaicans of convenience appear late in the process and do nothing for the team...except disrupt chemistry and demotivate local players ...of course there are exceptions

[Stonigut]

Yeah, different argument, it started broader then changed to this fit business.

Why how players fit in other setups is important is in identifying the mental, emotional makeup which will minimize the time we spend chasing pretty talent, as we are currently set to do, not realizing that we must fit team to circumstance , time and place. Guys believe Jamaica can go into Aztecs using 4-4-2 with players not historically known for fitness or for mental strength in the heat of a critical battle.

[Don1]

Some other guys believe we should go into the Azteca with players for whom Jamaica is a convenience and whose qualification is a binder full of dated statistics

[Tilla]

Tilla is making the point that players special needs means that player must be matched to team, which is the cart leading the horse.

Stoni, you are so far off you leave me to wonder about you sometimes.

My point I was making which I am seeing has eluded you all this time is that players are not only not selected because they are indesciplined or are no good. I found that this is how you have tried to paint the Jamaican players who have been unsuccessful in landing contracts abroad.

You seem to think Gardner and Austin are in a different class as they were able to make the transitions to their respective teams without any issues. I was merely trying to point out to you that Austin and Gardner were fortunate to have landed with clubs in which they were liked by the coach, who in most cases have the final word on selection. I am sure these players would have problems adjusting to other teams if the coach did not like what he saw and did not see them as fitting into the teams.

My final word here Stoni. "Fit" is the operative word here when it comes to selection or non-selection of players by coaches. I am sure that Gardner and Austin would have their fit problems if say they went to some other teams as well.

[Muadib]

vs players whose qualification is playing rubbish in Jamaica colors..

I only see upside testing out the binders crew..

[Don1]

Mebbe so...if one accepts the model. ...but there's a larger point at play as subtext

Persons write thousands of words and show tremendous passion researching and promoting which visitors to interject into the RBoyz at the last moment

By comparison they're strangely mute about the core problem...the development gap at home. No passion generated there.
So 20 years from now no doubt we'll still be scrambling for these journeymen for hire

Lee Kwan Yew would be proud of this scientific approach...At once myopic & quixotic

[Muadib]

Well unless you can prove that one is being done at the expense of the other.. your approach is invalid..

It Takes Cash to Care... if dem guh World Cup a more cash dat..

[Stonigut]

Alright we have to agree to disagree on this one. While I think some clubs style of playing can be a better fit than some, fundamentally at the end of the day it is a simple game of fitness, speed, skill and technical ability and if you are reasonably endowed with a mix of these then you should be able to adapt to wherever you are placed. Austin and gardener and some of the others that have had long careers the difference is in maturity, adaptability and personal responsibility, self driven players who are also good team players, without those things the player is a rudderless ship that founder on the first sign of shallows in unexpected places due to lack of vision and maturity. Alright let me not kill you with my 'suspect' reasoning.

Btw my experience is based not just on watching players but picking workers with the focus on potential high performance, longevity and ability to fit into teams, I have worked with high performance manufacturing and operations teams in many places and I have found it is not always about skill and speed of the worker but about workers that are self driven and team oriented and this is the general point I have been trying to make unsuccessfully!

[Don1]

Prove dat?? LOL. Yuh tink ah one equation dis yute?? I have to prove nothing

It's obvious to any discerning observer that the ready availability of foreign journeymen has been used as a crutch for the football program....enabling Jamaica to avoid grass roots development without a big penalty

The myopia is lika virus