Martinez wants Liverpool assurances

[Sir X]

LOL...yess Sasss we are where you wanted us to be after Hodgson,Now we are with Martinez and its more faught....So basically forget about the Top 4 /Trophies and brace ourselves for a midtable/relegation fight, your kinda ball game.

Wha yuh say , we fi know wi place and be realistic,Paul, Jangle, Lazie Dunny & Sass ?

[Dunny]

My question was how you could pick Martinez over Rafa. Much of what you say against Rafa I don't dispute. I have similar issues, but you can't say Rafa made the UCL finals 2x with Houllier's team. Rafa's mistake was losing Alonso. Now, there is no question that Martinez did a good job at Wigan, but managing a squad with a cost basis of 20m pounds is not the same as managing expensive players or a big budget. I have no doubt that Martinez is going to be a manager of the future, but he should go to Villa before he goes anywhere else. Liverpool in turn needs to find a *proven* manager, give him the budget, space and time and go from there. There is too much risk with an unproven entity. Lastly, as for Arsenal, you have seen me discuss on here that I am a huge fan of their model, but can you see Fergie or Mancini operating under those conditions? That said, Arsenal's wage bill of 124m is higher than their cost basis would suggest. This is really the problem that KD had, with a squad wage bill of over 130m, (4th highest in the league behind chelski, city and the scum), he finished 8th!! I don't think Martinez is the best choice, but if he is the one, then I have no choice but to back him.

Hiring Rafa again would be a huge mistake Paul, Liverpool would have to give him 100 million to spend, he is a high maintenance manager, i dont think Liverpool can afford that. They need to sort out their stadium to get at least 60,000 people through the gates to be able to compete so i cant see the next manager having a big transfer budget, can you imagine Rafa working under such constraint?

[Sir X]

LOL....Dunny you act as if you are ignorant of H&G broken promises , as if Rafa acted in a Vaccum.Basically you deny that we operated on a sell to buy policy which is really a risky policy of (sell to the strengthen).As if H&G opened the bank for Rafa!

Disingenious or kindly ignorant to disregard and disrespect Rafa.Our youth policy is among the best in the EPL we have 2 youth coaches that framed it in the Barcelona model , now doing the same at pool?All because of Rafa can you disregard that.Martin Kelly the youth Hodgson just called is from that academy.

Why deny the truth ? Rafa sold to buy , it was Risky and we were a true force, his last season if you can admit the truth, irrespective of Alonso being sold ,injuries brought his down fall the last season to a 6th poisition.

But no , you can stick to the amounts spent over 6 seasons, an FA Cup , community Shield, CL , and runners up in both Prem & CL as money wasted, only a fool would buy into it.

Alonso leaving isnt hear nor there to me , Big players leave all the time , the problem is people looking at Rafa as if he operated on an equal financial footing as Man City /Chelsea/Arsenal/ManCity who dont operate under a sell to buy policy ,whilst disregarding the trophies he brought us in 5 seasons to say he was worthless and others can operate in said Chaos (H&G) and achieve same or more ,while they have achieved less who havent that policy , as in the case of Arsenal! Man City just won a Title after spending billions in 3 seasons .

[Assasin]

the fact is it always going to be a up hill battle for you. Making top 4 now is not an easy thing and unnu waste 120 million dollar last year to add to that.

I would tell you take a leaf out of Newcastle book. The fact is unlike nuff a you, I love football and I don't wish bad for any team, I hope pool can pull their way back to the top but believe it or not it is not going to be easy.

[Dunny]

LOL....Dunny you act as if you are ignorant of H&G broken promises , as if Rafa acted in a Vaccum.Basically you deny that we operated on a sell to buy policy which is really a risky policy of (sell to the strengthen).As if H&G opened the bank for Rafa!

Disingenious or kindly ignorant to disregard and disrespect Rafa.Our youth policy is among the best in the EPL we have 2 youth coaches that framed it in the Barcelona model , now doing the same at pool?All because of Rafa can you disregard that.Martin Kelly the youth Hodgson just called is from that academy.

Why deny the truth ? Rafa sold to buy , it was Risky and we were a true force, his last season if you can admit the truth, irrespective of Alonso being sold ,injuries brought his down fall the last season to a 6th poisition.

But no , you can stick to the amounts spent over 6 seasons, an FA Cup , community Shield, CL , and runners up in both Prem & CL as money wasted, only a fool would buy into it.

Alonso leaving isnt hear nor there to me , Big players leave all the time , the problem is people looking at Rafa as if he operated on an equal financial footing as Man City /Chelsea/Arsenal/ManCity who dont operate under a sell to buy policy ,whilst disregarding the trophies he brought us in 5 seasons to say he was worthless and others can operate in said Chaos (H&G) and achieve same or more ,while they have achieved less who havent that policy , as in the case of Arsenal! Man City just won a Title after spending billions in 3 seasons .

I am not saying he is useless boss, i am saying the man high maintenance. If he was at Man City or Chelsea i am sure he would win trophies simply because he would have an unlimited budget but in my opinion he cant work under financial constraints.

[Sir X]

Stop talk out of both sides of your mouth , Liverpool/H&G wasnt no Man City or Chelsea under Rafa they begged for sponsorship/investors , promised Rafa X, Y Z and delivered lip service.


Rafa won titles under finanacial restraints , what do you think a sell to buy policy is ? (or sell to strengthen ).

Very disingenious.

[Dunny]

Stop talk out of both sides of your mouth , Liverpool/H&G wasnt no Man City or Chelsea under Rafa they begged for sponsorship/investors , promised Rafa X, Y Z and delivered lip service.


Rafa won titles under finanacial restraints , what do you think a sell to buy policy is ? (or sell to strengthen ).

Very disingenious.

I know what that policy is, the one that Arsene work under, the fact remain Rafa spent loads of money at Liverpool, he was ALWAYS active in the transfer market he just wanted more and more to spend.

[Sir X]

Gotcha Suh Arse work under the same policy and hasnt won anything since Rafa/Pool came into existence, is it that Rafa was better at it ?

Is Arse still coaching Arsenal and is it because he has won a title to keep his managerial job , or you have stable patient leadership?

BTW Wenger chooses to work under the policy he doesnt have to , a big difference in that he has no pressure from a H&G type board or owners.

Anyway answer my 1st question, no pressure , same policy and Arse has won what since Rafa came to pool, would imply Rafa is simply better.

He has titles to prove it and runnners up medals also.I think you have 1 runners up medal in CL since Rafa/Pool came into existence.

[Paul Marin]

Gotcha Suh Arse work under the same policy and hasnt won anything since Rafa/Pool came into existence, is it that Rafa was better at it ?

Is Arse still coaching Arsenal and is it because he has won a title to keep his managerial job , or you have stable patient leadership?

BTW Wenger chooses to work under the policy he doesnt have to , a big difference in that he has no pressure from a H&G type board or owners.

Anyway answer my 1st question, no pressure , same policy and Arse has won what since Rafa came to pool, would imply Rafa is simply better.

He has titles to prove it and runnners up medals also.I think you have 1 runners up medal in CL since Rafa/Pool came into existence.

X, I am not arguing AGAINST Rafa and I agree with everything you say. He was given far less than the other managers who won prem titles while he was at Liverpool, no question. However, is he the right man going forward? While I rate Rafa, I don't think this is the right environment for him. The people you should be REALLY VEX at is Parry and Moores, who sold our beloved club to H&G instead of DIC. Rafa + DIC would have been an excellent partnership. I don't see Rafa and FSG being a good fit. And by the way - the reason why the Alonso departure was so pivotal was becasue we didn't replace him effectively. Rafa mad a HUGE blunder in bringing in Aquaman INJURED. That set the tone for the rest of the season and our fall from the top 4. Ironically, all of Rafa's signings remain the backbone of the club. Without Agger, Reina, Skrtel, Johnson, Kuyt, we're not much of anything, especially when you compare that list to KD's and Roy's signings combined. Only Suarez stands out.

[Dunny]

Gotcha Suh Arse work under the same policy and hasnt won anything since Rafa/Pool came into existence, is it that Rafa was better at it ?

Is Arse still coaching Arsenal and is it because he has won a title to keep his managerial job , or you have stable patient leadership?

BTW Wenger chooses to work under the policy he doesnt have to , a big difference in that he has no pressure from a H&G type board or owners.

Anyway answer my 1st question, no pressure , same policy and Arse has won what since Rafa came to pool, would imply Rafa is simply better.

He has titles to prove it and runnners up medals also.I think you have 1 runners up medal in CL since Rafa/Pool came into existence.

and a gleaming new stadium, always in the top 4 and the most he as ever spent on a player is 15million.

[Sir X]

Rafa problem with FSG would be control and that is what it seems is turning off alot of managers,If FSG wants to gamble on a young manager to function in that system , so be it , but BIG NAME managers want control over their purchases.

Not a good fit under FSG percieved structure , but he is at least owed a phone call out of professional courtesy.

Like I said Alonso being sold isnt a factor to me in judging Rafa, under such a policy he is entitled to make mistakes,surprising he didnt make much and more surprising to some ,he won titles regardless of some.

[Sir X]

Kudos to good management,tell me about a new stadium (H&G).I dont take anything away from Arsenals financial structure , it is to be envied, i wouldnt wish H&G and now it seems FSG on you.

Pools predicament is we have to be in the top 4 and win titles to be marketable to rebuild a stadium,If we are not in the top 4 , we have to be in Cup finals or win some of them to attract players and sponsorship.I dont see it happening under Martinez.

[Dunny]

Kudos to good management,tell me about a new stadium (H&G).I dont take anything away from Arsenals financial structure , it is to be envied, i wouldnt wish H&G and now it seems FSG on you.

Pools predicament is we have to be in the top 4 and win titles to be marketable to rebuild a stadium,If we are not in the top 4 , we have to be in Cup finals or win some of them to attract players and sponsorship.I dont see it happening under Martinez.

Dont be so sure X, he might just surprise you.

[Sir X]

Thats the point Dunny, how far we have fallen ,to hoping for a surprise.But to the issue of the yanks with their control structure.Very Risky ,it will scare away good managers ,which will cost us alot .

I guess its the price FSG are willing to literally pay for , which tells me , they have deep pockets and time to waste.But can they deal with the Fan backlash,who frankly dont have the time to waste,We want the prem now, if not that then trophies and to be challenging for a top 4 position.

Surprise me ? truly sad if this is what we have come to.

[Paul Marin]

Thats the point Dunny, how far we have fallen ,to hoping for a surprise.But to the issue of the yanks with their control structure.Very Risky ,it will scare away good managers ,which will cost us alot .

I guess its the price FSG are willing to literally pay for , which tells me , they have deep pockets and time to waste.But can they deal with the Fan backlash,who frankly dont have the time to waste,We want the prem now, if not that then trophies and to be challenging for a top 4 position.

Surprise me ? truly sad if this is what we have come to.

X- as I understand it the structure FSG is looking to put in place is exactly the same as it is at Barca and other EU clubs. It is not typical in England. I can understand why managers would not want it, but there is a precident. I also agree that Rafa is worth a call out of professional courtesy, but we would never know if that call was made or not.