Dream on Arsenal fans

[Hortical]

He worked wonders for the Greek national team and one of his famous quotes was "No one should forget that a coach adapts the tactics to the characteristics of the available players."

[Jamaica2099]

No need for Pep to come to the Emirates. Rest well and watch the Gunners take the maximum 3 points against Norwich next Saturday to guarantee automatic qualification to the Champions League next season.

[GazX]

No need for Pep to come to the Emirates. Rest well and watch the Gunners take the maximum 3 points against Norwich next Saturday to guarantee automatic qualification to the Champions League next season.

Is automatic qualification to the CL what Arsenal fans now have to count as success?
Many years ago (when Dragons walked the earth) im sure they use to win the odd trophy. And after that mauling by Inter at San Siro, can any AFC fan really expect any thing different from this season by AW or the team next season especially when RVP leaves.
Still; suh long as AFC finish in another CL spot next season, everyting kriss wid fans and board

[Paul Marin]

Is automatic qualification to the CL what Arsenal fans now have to count as success?
Many years ago (when Dragons walked the earth) im sure they use to win the odd trophy. And after that mauling by Inter at San Siro, can any AFC fan really expect any thing different from this season by AW or the team next season especially when RVP leaves.
Still; suh long as AFC finish in another CL spot next season, everyting kriss wid fans and board

I guess the alternative is to take on $1B in debt and have one or two trophies every other season or so to show for it. The club is a business first...trophies are secorndary. And as the numbers show, Arsenal is the best at the business of football. That's just plain sensible.

[GazX]

I guess the alternative is to take on $1B in debt and have one or two trophies every other season or so to show for it. The club is a business first...trophies are secorndary. And as the numbers show, Arsenal is the best at the business of football. That's just plain sensible.

Which numbers you talkin bout. The big annual profits the clubs keeps posting or the numbers where fans pay extortionate ticket prices for no return of silver ware each season?
Yes that is good business if you can make the paying public swallow it but Frm what i see/hear this season, Arsenal fans getting fed-up of the sensible business first excuse, and now demanding the best business model to follow in football, which is seeing trophies inna di cabinet. Nothing succeeds like success on the pitch. Just ask Pep and Barca fans.

[Paul Marin]

Which numbers you talkin bout. The big annual profits the clubs keeps posting or the numbers where fans pay extortionate ticket prices for no return of silver ware each season?
Yes that is good business if you can make the paying public swallow it but Frm what i see/hear this season, Arsenal fans getting fed-up of the sensible business first excuse, and now demanding the best business model to follow in football, which is seeing trophies inna di cabinet. Nothing succeeds like success on the pitch. Just ask Pep and Barca fans.

The "business first" numbers are "annual profits". How many fans out there for clubs like Newcastle, Villa, Bolton, Wigan etc. win silverware year in year out? If winning silverware is the measure of fan loyalty, there would be no football leagues. Business first - trophies second. And by the way - the fans who are "fed up" of the business first posture at Arsenal can always stay home - the emirates will still be packed ($$$$) as long as they are competitive. Arsenal's model is plain and simple: sensible...unlike the Barca model which is heavily dependent on debt and bound to reach a point of diminishing returns...which we may well be seeing the start of (and probably a big part of why Pep is leaving).

[GazX]

The "business first" numbers are "annual profits". How many fans out there for clubs like Newcastle, Villa, Bolton, Wigan etc. win silverware year in year out? If winning silverware is the measure of fan loyalty, there would be no football leagues. Business first - trophies second. And by the way - the fans who are "fed up" of the business first posture at Arsenal can always stay home - the emirates will still be packed ($$$$) as long as they are competitive. Arsenal's model is plain and simple: sensible...unlike the Barca model which is heavily dependent on debt and bound to reach a point of diminishing returns...which we may well be seeing the start of (and probably a big part of why Pep is leaving).

You're seeing them stay at home already. Did you noticed how during the slump the club attendance would say 60000, but look around the ground and you see empty spaces. How does that happen, and not good for business if it continues.

Competitive; Have Arsenal IYO been as competitive - trophy hunting wise - over the last 5-6 years than in previous years?
Last season they had the best opportunity for years to lift that league title and flopped.
This season IYO have they been competitive in challenging for any of the major honours?
The fans will only imo tolerate paying top dollar at the turnstiles for so long unless they start seeing something tangible coming back the other way. ie a trophy.

[Paul Marin]

You're seeing them stay at home already. Did you noticed how during the slump the club attendance would say 60000, but look around the ground and you see empty spaces. How does that happen, and not good for business if it continues.

Competitive; Have Arsenal IYO been as competitive - trophy hunting wise - over the last 5-6 years than in previous years?
Last season they had the best opportunity for years to lift that league title and flopped.
This season IYO have they been competitive in challenging for any of the major honours?
The fans will only imo tolerate paying top dollar at the turnstiles for so long unless they start seeing something tangible coming back the other way. ie a trophy.

Gazx - the problem you're raising is the struggle between short term success and long term success. Arsenal went out and built a huge stadium at a time when forecasts expected the real estate value alone to give them an appreciation that could increase the overall asset value of the club. That did not happen; in fact, the opposite happened. Real estate crashed. However, the club will probably be mortgage free with enough cash flow to fund strategically important acquisitions and fuel their academy to produce a squad of competitive homegrown players capable of playing in a UCL semi-finals all within 2 to 5 years. That is a model for a sustainable club, not a 10 year flash in the pan that City and Chelski may be doomed to. There is a reason that the Gunners have not been out of the top flight for almost 90 years - sound fiscal management. As long as they have a talented manager and a sensible board, true Gunners fans will have the last laugh.

To give you an example - in 2009, Barca's debt was ~€350m but they turned a profit of only €8.8m. At that rate, it would take them over 100 years or more to pay back their debt. All this in a year where the club won SIX trophies!!! Yeah - nuff silverware!!! What are those fans thinking now? Now look at the Gunners. In the 2010 1/2 year (when they won nothing) turned in a profit of£35m+, and simultaneously reduced their mortgage debt by a whopping £100m.

Gunners' strategy is very straightforward:
1. eliminate mortgage debt repayments asap,
2. keep qualifying for UCL and
3. bring in high cost reinforcements only when necessary.

Now, consider:

1. as I understand it, in 2-3 years, they should be free of debt on the stadium (a HUGE accomplishment),
2. they already have a squad capable of challenging both domestically and in Europe - maybe not winning, but doing well enough to achieve their cash flow goals to pay off the stadium and
3. they showed willingness to break out the checkbook when necessary - you saw this with their 11th hour scramble after the 8-2 battabruisin they got at OT.

The point is - all growth will be generated organically, not at the whim of a wealthy owner who could get bored or hit on hard times himself at any time.

So as I see it, Gunners will be the most sustainable club in English football in the next few years. Not even Barcelona will be able to match that, and it’s hard to see any club in the world that will be generating tens of millions of pounds every year in profit like they will. They will not be bigger than Real Madrid on a revenue basis any time soon, but year-on-year profit - that's the sweet nectar of stability. Sustainable profits are the foundation from which they can expand their academy, focus on creating stars, and produce the kind of results on the pitch that the small-minded silverware addict craves...so it will be the best of both worlds.

So to judge them on their "recent performance" without factoring in their strategy is short-sighted. You can tell those so-called fans that "will only tolerate paying top dollar at the turnstiles for so long unless they start seeing something tangible coming back the other way. ie a trophy" to go support Manu** or City...but that they can't come back after Slurgie kicks the bucket or the Arabs decide to stop spending their money on a losing proposition.

All in all, you can criticize their strategy if you want, but show me how winning titles will translate to paying off their mortgage. You only have to look at Barca to know where a silverware-at-all-costs strategy is headed. They are also very lucky to have a sensible manager like Wenger who is first about the club, and not his own legacy.

[GazX]

Gazx - the problem you're raising is the struggle between short term success and long term success. Arsenal went out and built a huge stadium at a time when forecasts expected the real estate value alone to give them an appreciation that could increase the overall asset value of the club. That did not happen; in fact, the opposite happened. Real estate crashed. However, the club will probably be mortgage free with enough cash flow to fund strategically important acquisitions and fuel their academy to produce a squad of competitive homegrown players capable of playing in a UCL semi-finals all within 2 to 5 years. That is a model for a sustainable club, not a 10 year flash in the pan that City and Chelski may be doomed to. There is a reason that the Gunners have not been out of the top flight for almost 90 years - sound fiscal management. As long as they have a talented manager and a sensible board, true Gunners fans will have the last laugh.

To give you an example - in 2009, Barca's debt was ~€350m but they turned a profit of only €8.8m. At that rate, it would take them over 100 years or more to pay back their debt. All this in a year where the club won SIX trophies!!! Yeah - nuff silverware!!! What are those fans thinking now? Now look at the Gunners. In the 2010 1/2 year (when they won nothing) turned in a profit of£35m+, and simultaneously reduced their mortgage debt by a whopping £100m.

Gunners' strategy is very straightforward:
1. eliminate mortgage debt repayments asap,
2. keep qualifying for UCL and
3. bring in high cost reinforcements only when necessary.

Now, consider:

1. as I understand it, in 2-3 years, they should be free of debt on the stadium (a HUGE accomplishment),
2. they already have a squad capable of challenging both domestically and in Europe - maybe not winning, but doing well enough to achieve their cash flow goals to pay off the stadium and
3. they showed willingness to break out the checkbook when necessary - you saw this with their 11th hour scramble after the 8-2 battabruisin they got at OT.

The point is - all growth will be generated organically, not at the whim of a wealthy owner who could get bored or hit on hard times himself at any time.

So as I see it, Gunners will be the most sustainable club in English football in the next few years. Not even Barcelona will be able to match that, and it’s hard to see any club in the world that will be generating tens of millions of pounds every year in profit like they will. They will not be bigger than Real Madrid on a revenue basis any time soon, but year-on-year profit - that's the sweet nectar of stability. Sustainable profits are the foundation from which they can expand their academy, focus on creating stars, and produce the kind of results on the pitch that the small-minded silverware addict craves...so it will be the best of both worlds.

So to judge them on their "recent performance" without factoring in their strategy is short-sighted. You can tell those so-called fans that "will only tolerate paying top dollar at the turnstiles for so long unless they start seeing something tangible coming back the other way. ie a trophy" to go support Manu** or City...but that they can't come back after Slurgie kicks the bucket or the Arabs decide to stop spending their money on a losing proposition.

All in all, you can criticize their strategy if you want, but show me how winning titles will translate to paying off their mortgage. You only have to look at Barca to know where a silverware-at-all-costs strategy is headed. They are also very lucky to have a sensible manager like Wenger who is first about the club, and not his own legacy.

The old £300 million argument put forward again. How long has it been that same figure and it never ever seems to go down

Consider this, before that 60000 capacity stadium was built and opened in 2006 what was Arsenal's highbury attendance capacity 39000 max. Look what they were able to do with that lower attendance.

2 league titles since the turning of the new millenium.
3 fa cups
2 charity shields
And even 1 CL final appearance V Barcelona and in the process attracting players like Berkampt, Henry, Viera, Petit, etc, and no doubts while not paying the highest salaries when compared to the like of MU, RM, Barca, Milans, etc were still able to attract such stars. And all that done on 39000 crowd attendance.

If my football knowledge serve me right, the new stadium hold an extra 21000 fans. The club has at least one Billionaire on the board as well as other mega multi millionaires. And dont forget the extra income the stadium itself brings in in terms of advertising and add to that the premiership money, and money from regularly competing in the CL, It all adds up to one BIG CASH cow. You seriously telling me that this bigger attendance, multi millionaire + Billionaire club cant compete as strongly as the same Arsenal that was only getting 39000 fans. This club that is/was charging fan £100 for a ticket!!? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-day-seat.html If that is the case then somethings gone wrong with eithers Wengas management, or the board is very content with the current situation of making £50 million profits per year, but without that same desire as their supporters to want to end the trophy draught asap. And If the latter is indeed the case, then they should publically say so to those supporters who are coughing up big money in the hope that they can see AFC competing with the best and actually winning like they use to, and not be used as surrogate mortgage repayers 1st. And success starved trophy demanding supporters 2nd.

[Paul Marin]

The old £300 million argument put forward again. How long has it been that same figure and it never ever seems to go down

Consider this, before that 60000 capacity stadium was built and opened in 2006 what was Arsenal's highbury attendance capacity 39000 max. Look what they were able to do with that lower attendance.

2 league titles since the turning of the new millenium.
3 fa cups
2 charity shields
And even 1 CL final appearance V Barcelona and in the process attracting players like Berkampt, Henry, Viera, Petit, etc, and no doubts while not paying the highest salaries when compared to the like of MU, RM, Barca, Milans, etc were still able to attract such stars. And all that done on 39000 crowd attendance.

If my football knowledge serve me right, the new stadium hold an extra 21000 fans. The club has at least one Billionaire on the board as well as other mega multi millionaires. And dont forget the extra income the stadium itself brings in in terms of advertising and add to that the premiership money, and money from regularly competing in the CL, It all adds up to one BIG CASH cow. You seriously telling me that this bigger attendance, multi millionaire + Billionaire club cant compete as strongly as the same Arsenal that was only getting 39000 fans. This club that is/was charging fan £100 for a ticket!!? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...-day-seat.html If that is the case then somethings gone wrong with eithers Wengas management, or the board is very content with the current situation of making £50 million profits per year, but without that same desire as their supporters to want to end the trophy draught asap. And If the latter is indeed the case, then they should publically say so to those supporters who are coughing up big money in the hope that they can see AFC competing with the best and actually winning like they use to, and not be used as surrogate mortgage repayers 1st. And success starved trophy demanding supporters 2nd.

You are ignoring the economics that were prevalent during that period when they showed on field success. There was no Abramovich money, Glazer debt or Manchester City oil money in the game. Neither was the stain of galactico spending hitting England and the draw was Spain, not the premiership for the world's top talent. You can't compare that era when they won trophies on a more level playing field with the imbalance they face now. Their counter to the big money spending was to build a bigger stadium, enter into other commercial deals and run the club the old fashioned way...based on profit, not debt. No matter how you want to slice it, the fans who want trophies need to sit down, chill and be patient -- or -- find another club to support. It is sheer lunacy to run a club the way City, Chelsea or United are running theirs. At some point, some one else will have to either bail out United (by paying over the odds for them), same with Chelsea, or simply find someone rich enough to make owning a football club their personal play thing. There are not many people like that in the world - it is a heady business, even for billionaires.

[GazX]

You are ignoring the economics that were prevalent during that period when they showed on field success. There was no Abramovich money, Glazer debt or Manchester City oil money in the game. Neither was the stain of galactico spending hitting England and the draw was Spain, not the premiership for the world's top talent. You can't compare that era when they won trophies on a more level playing field with the imbalance they face now. Their counter to the big money spending was to build a bigger stadium, enter into other commercial deals and run the club the old fashioned way...based on profit, not debt. No matter how you want to slice it, the fans who want trophies need to sit down, chill and be patient -- or -- find another club to support. It is sheer lunacy to run a club the way City, Chelsea or United are running theirs. At some point, some one else will have to either bail out United (by paying over the odds for them), same with Chelsea, or simply find someone rich enough to make owning a football club their personal play thing. There are not many people like that in the world - it is a heady business, even for billionaires.

Exactly no Glazer debt and therefore a stronger MU team than now who AFC were competing against successfully on crowds of 39000. So how is it that as you've pointed out, MU have this debt. The question still has to be asked was last season a missed opportunity to finally end that trophy draught. And the answer to that question - even the most loyal Wenger supporter would say - is yes. But for a little more investment in quality in the team, ( and i aint talking mega hundred millions) Arsenal (without a doubt) could have/ should have been League winners and league cup winner last season, We can use finance and repayments of loans as an excuse to only so far. But when you see AW then having to almost panick buy ie Mertesaker etc, and you see Newcastle bring in the likes of Tiote, Cisse, Demba Ba etc its increasingly difficult to excuse the lack of quality in AFCs squad on simply finances. If Pardew/Newcastle under similar tight financial reins can thrive under such austere financial conditions, then why shouldnt AW/Arsenal?

[Paul Marin]

Exactly no Glazer debt and therefore a stronger MU team than now who AFC were competing against successfully on crowds of 39000. So how is it that as you've pointed out, MU have this debt. The question still has to be asked was last season a missed opportunity to finally end that trophy draught. And the answer to that question - even the most loyal Wenger supporter would say - is yes. But for a little more investment in quality in the team, ( and i aint talking mega hundred millions) Arsenal (without a doubt) could have/ should have been League winners and league cup winner last season, We can use finance and repayments of loans as an excuse to only so far. But when you see AW then having to almost panick buy ie Mertesaker etc, and you see Newcastle bring in the likes of Tiote, Cisse, Demba Ba etc its increasingly difficult to excuse the lack of quality in AFCs squad on simply finances. If Pardew/Newcastle under similar tight financial reins can thrive under such austere financial conditions, then why shouldnt AW/Arsenal?

1. MU have the debt they have because the Glazers put the purchase price of the club as a liability on the clubs books. Secondly, they have spent heavily to buy players in the 05-07 seasons, but not so in the past few seasons...in fact...the Ronaldo sale went to pay down debt.

2. Last season may have been an opportunity to end the trophy drought, but I think that it was one screw up in the League Cup final; the bigger question had to be asked of Arsenal's meltdown in 2008 when Gallas and company threw away the lead with a draw at Birmingham.

3. There is no question that Arsenal like other clubs, can afford to spend big on players if they wanted to; but they clearly are more interested in getting to financial stability first. That's their business. If fans don't like it - tough. They can stay home; but it will hardly matter as there will be fans following the club as long as they play attractive football and are just competitive enough.

[GazX]

1. MU have the debt they have because the Glazers put the purchase price of the club as a liability on the clubs books. Secondly, they have spent heavily to buy players in the 05-07 seasons,

but not so in the past few seasons...in fact...the Ronaldo sale went to pay down debt.

2. Last season may have been an opportunity to end the trophy drought, but I think that it was one screw up in the League Cup final; the bigger question had to be asked of Arsenal's meltdown in 2008 when Gallas and company threw away the lead with a draw at Birmingham.

3. There is no question that Arsenal like other clubs, can afford to spend big on players if they wanted to; but they clearly are more interested in getting to financial stability first. That's their business. If fans don't like it - tough. They can stay home; but it will hardly matter as there will be fans following the club as long as they play attractive football and are just competitive enough.

PM; Apologies for an error re: the debt. Never quite explain what i intended to say properly due to hasty posting/not rechecking post before posting
What it should should have read, or tried to point out was that even MU have a debt/ financial liabilities yet still AF still able to make some kind of sustained Prem title Challenge unlike AFC.

Pt 2 re: trophy draught; from yr response, seems like you / fans are resigned to accepting the current state of play re: the club competing for those major honours and that's as good as it'll get under the current management regime. Given the success of Newcastle in bringing in good quality players at relatively low transfer fee's, compared with Arteta etc, and Mertesaker - whose should have been worn by Cahill, dosent this say that things a AFC could/should be much healthier than they are? And in this situation of financial prudence, then 10 mill for Arteta with little/no sell on value is both nuts, and undermines that constantly trotted out excuse for poorer quality signing due to the need to repay back this £300+ million used by the board/AW.

As for attractive football; Even ugly football is preferable to fans if it results in trophy success. Again that points to the philosophy of the management which fails to recognise that sometimes you come across situations where you need more than just pretty players or pretty passing moves to achieve a desirable result.
G. Graham's reign would be a testimony that more ugly football is required to bring about success, and i cant see anything changing too soon as things currently stand within AFC.

As for financial stability, if AFC weren't considered already financially stable then i dont think any bank/lender would have been prepared risk giving them any loan for the building of that stadium in the first place. The club asking for fans to pay through the nose to remove the incurred debts, but what are the chances of the ticket prices being reduced for (supporters/ mortgage repayers ) if/when that loan is declared finally repayed.

Last point; what does just competitive enough now mean to AFC fans?
Seems like another way of saying we're happy not making any sustained/serious push for the Prem title/ CL next season.

[Dunny]

Exactly no Glazer debt and therefore a stronger MU team than now who AFC were competing against successfully on crowds of 39000. So how is it that as you've pointed out, MU have this debt. The question still has to be asked was last season a missed opportunity to finally end that trophy draught. And the answer to that question - even the most loyal Wenger supporter would say - is yes. But for a little more investment in quality in the team, ( and i aint talking mega hundred millions) Arsenal (without a doubt) could have/ should have been League winners and league cup winner last season, We can use finance and repayments of loans as an excuse to only so far. But when you see AW then having to almost panick buy ie Mertesaker etc, and you see Newcastle bring in the likes of Tiote, Cisse, Demba Ba etc its increasingly difficult to excuse the lack of quality in AFCs squad on simply finances. If Pardew/Newcastle under similar tight financial reins can thrive under such austere financial conditions, then why shouldnt AW/Arsenal?

Gaz, dont always believe what you read in the English media talking about panic buy, Arsene Wenger have been tracking Mertesacker for a long time and was just waiting on the right moment to get him knowing that he only had a year left on his contract hence the fee of less than 10,000 000. The English media are even trying to make him look like a bad player and a lot of you guys believe it as well. If Mertesacker was a rubbish player then how as he been Germany's number 1 centre back since 2004,with 76 caps, helped is country to two World Cup semi-finals and was the captain of Werder Bremen and is only 27 years old. Arsene Wenger have been doing what Newcasle are doing for years, please remember Arsenal's record transfer fee for any player is the 15 mil payed for Arshavin and have a look at how many quality players have worked under the prof in his tenure!! unbelievable

[GazX]

Gaz, dont always believe what you read in the English media talking about panic buy, Arsene Wenger have been tracking Mertesacker for a long time and was just waiting on the right moment to get him knowing that he only had a year left on his contract hence the fee of less than 10,000 000. The English media are even trying to make him look like a bad player and a lot of you guys believe it as well. If Mertesacker was a rubbish player then how as he been Germany's number 1 centre back since 2004,with 76 caps, helped is country to two World Cup semi-finals and was the captain of Werder Bremen and is only 27 years old. Arsene Wenger have been doing what Newcasle are doing for years, please remember Arsenal's record transfer fee for any player is the 15 mil payed for Arshavin and have a look at how many quality players have worked under the prof in his tenure!! unbelievable

Two questions; Was AW/AFC in talks with G. Cahill first or Mertesacker?
And being honest, which player looks the better defender between the two?