YEAH!!! YIPPEE!!! Okay Mo...I know, I know...we jes disagree

[Gamma]

well when him state UPFRONT and before hand that he would do it again ... what is he, a honest cheat?

[Paul Marin]

well when him state UPFRONT and before hand that he would do it again ... what is he, a honest cheat?

No...simply honest. He gets it. Players are not there to do anything but win and if they take a calculated risk in using the laws to their advantage (as opposed to trying to deceive) then that's fair play as far as I'm concerned. Now if he tries to lie about it - that's tiefin! Maradona, Rivaldo, Th14 - all had infractions that were far more egregious to my way of thinking - especially Rivaldo who not only lied, but did so to get another man sent off.

[Gamma]

well he got it! it all makes it sound so premeditated .... proof that he is a cheat at heart.

[GazX]

well he got it! it all makes it sound so premeditated .... proof that he is a cheat at heart.

Couldnt have put it better. And what makes it worse is that there's no sign of remorse or apology for his actions.

"Success for Liverpool is more important to me than anything else"; Well if he thinks that then football as a credible sport is doomed as every player, no matter what club has licence to cheat, and Liverpool's reputation as football club is doomed. No point criticising Young diving on one hand then accepting anything goes to achieve success. And going by the one Suarez quote, it also rules in racist abuse if by such means it contributes to Liverpool's success on the pitch. And last but not least what about the impressionable youth watching. What message does Suarez's win at any costs attitude send out to them.

[Paul Marin]

Couldnt have put it better. And what makes it worse is that there's no sign of remorse or apology for his actions.

"Success for Liverpool is more important to me than anything else"; Well if he thinks that then football as a credible sport is doomed as every player, no matter what club has licence to cheat, and Liverpool's reputation as football club is doomed. No point criticising Young diving on one hand then accepting anything goes to achieve success. And going by the one Suarez quote, it also rules in racist abuse if by such means it contributes to Liverpool's success on the pitch. And last but not least what about the impressionable youth watching. What message does Suarez's win at any costs attitude send out to them.

Gaz - you are living in a fantasy world if you think that the "message to the youth" is part of any football establishment's thinking. Do me a favor and explain:

1. Is there a difference between an infraction and deception?
2. Is the example I gave about basketball cheating?
3. Are there "degrees" of cheating?

[Gamma]

well ..... enter match fixing .....

[Peter R]

Gamma, how come when a question is asked there is no answer? e.g. is the deliberate foul in basketball cheating? what about a time-wasting tactics adopted by all teams when they are ahead by a goal and only minutes to play? and there are a some other tactics that teams adopt that stretch the boundaries of fairness...

Those who feel aggrieved by the Ghana handball need to do as I did and get over it... did anyone ask what they might have done in the same situation? I have already said I would have done it too and I would do it again if I had to.... it's not nice but I would wear the cheat label gladly for that... if Gyan had not missed the penalty no one would have remembered the handball... as justice would have been served. Many still feel it hasn't been done...I doubt Suarez would be visiting Ghana any time soon.

[Gamma]

is me yuh ask?

anyway, the deliberate foul in basketball is part and parcel of how that game is played. commentators call it and i recall on more than one occasion them berating the coach and the player for not comitting the foul earlier etc. not so sure that they would appreciate a 2 footed tackle in a basketball game or a goal tend defensive or offensively at the wrong time ...
time wasting is part of the game too and that is accepted. some time wasting will get you a foul and some will not.

putting a 6' 9' striker against a 5' 10" centre half could fall into that category of tactics.

regarding suarez gyan and ghana, bully for you on all accounts, but for me suarez is a self confessed damn dirty thief and racist to boot (anything to win), his one redeeming factor is that when he decides to play football he is damn good player! since the ghana incident, he has not only done nothing to redeem himself, but rather he has proven that he deserves all those epithets i am flinging at him.

the ONLY team i probably would not have made such a fuss about if he had done that to them, is England, cya'an stand dem.

[Peter R]

Well thanks for answering; committing a handball as Suarez did has serious consequences which to me demonstrated the willingness the player had to sacrifice himself for the team... what he did was no different than the basketball player who fouls in order to get a chance to get his team back in the game, the fact that it is now routine in basketball and not the norm in football is immaterial... he did what he had to do to give his team a chance to win.

The ball is in FIFA's court as to how they deal with a situation like that, but until they change how that is treated then players IF THEY ARE SMART will do the same as he did in the same situation, NOT DOING it would be downright STUPID.

As far as the racist label, I will take that as your opinion as the FA and Evra have not proven that that is true about Suarez. So a handball and the use of the word "negro" (which he admits) while the accuser after writhing around on the ground as if a ten ton crane had crushed him, initiates conversation five minutes after by using an expression that refers literally to ones sisters privates ("concha de tu hermana") and calls him (allegedly) a "sudaca" (tantamout to "spick" or "wetback") and literally hounds him like a puppy dog ... this makes him the most hated footballer on this forum and elsewhere??? I (still) don't get it.

[GazX]

Gaz - you are living in a fantasy world if you think that the "message to the youth" is part of any football establishment's thinking. Do me a favor and explain:

1. Is there a difference between an infraction and deception?
2. Is the example I gave about basketball cheating?
3. Are there "degrees" of cheating?

Well fantasy can sometimes becomes reality as many an inventor can testify. And if everyone decends to the win AT ANY COST then why have any game rules of play at all? Better still why call it Football. Just have a ball and let the player use any means they can conceive to get the ball in the net. Thinking about it a guy did do that once. When playing a game of football he decided to cheat by picking it up and run with it into the goal. Thats how we ended up with a totally different game called RUGBY. Well i want football to remain as the football we still recognise and not a game that decends into which team can cheat or use foul means to secure a win.
In answer to your questions;

Q1; If both yr options are consciously and deliberately done to maintain or give yr team an advantage then NO. They're both cheating.

Q2 See above answer. Its still cheating when its consciously/deliberatley done.

Q3 NO; there's only cheating and fair honest play. Bit like saying is there degrees of theft/stealing/robbing. NO; how much/little of something is taken dishonestly/illegally still constitutes tiefing.
A bit off topic but if your over the alcohol limit by a tiny amount or big amount, your still over the limit and judge will still hand down a sentence.

[Peter R]

Therefore every football player that has ever committed a "conscious" foul is a cheater?? what is a conscious foul BTW ?
many a time a player will commit a foul when let's say going for a 55-45 ball (he is 45) but genuinely stretching his leg to make contact, knowing full well there is a low percentage of getting the ball... where do you draw the line? the player shouldn't try? is he cheating? that's what it sounds like you're saying...

[GazX]

Therefore every football player that has ever committed a "conscious" foul is a cheater?? what is a conscious foul BTW ?
many a time a player will commit a foul when let's say going for a 55-45 ball (he is 45) but genuinely stretching his leg to make contact, knowing full well there is a low percentage of getting the ball... where do you draw the line? the player shouldn't try? is he cheating? that's what it sounds like you're saying...

In plain English; YES.
Conscious foul means the player has deliberately/ consciously set out to foul or deny opposition an advantage. Or gain/maintain an advantage for his team over the opposition.

[GazX]

Therefore every football player that has ever committed a "conscious" foul is a cheater?? what is a conscious foul BTW ?
many a time a player will commit a foul when let's say going for a 55-45 ball (he is 45) but genuinely stretching his leg to make contact, knowing full well there is a low percentage of getting the ball... where do you draw the line? the player shouldn't try? is he cheating? that's what it sounds like you're saying...

Its about the intent in that situation. If genuinely he's going to win the ball then its not cheating. Only problem is only the player really knows if its 100% genuine attempt or not. Referee can only make an educated guess.

[Peter R]

well many a foul a player genuinely believes he has a chance to win the ball and ends up fouling the opposition; there is intent to deny a goal-scoring opportunity by genuinely trying to win the ball even when the ball carrier has you almost beaten...

anyway, by your reasoning this means that the majority of footballers are cheaters. So why pick on Suarez one?

[Paul Marin]

Well fantasy can sometimes becomes reality as many an inventor can testify. And if everyone decends to the win AT ANY COST then why have any game rules of play at all? Better still why call it Football. Just have a ball and let the player use any means they can conceive to get the ball in the net. Thinking about it a guy did do that once. When playing a game of football he decided to cheat by picking it up and run with it into the goal. Thats how we ended up with a totally different game called RUGBY. Well i want football to remain as the football we still recognise and not a game that decends into which team can cheat or use foul means to secure a win.
In answer to your questions;

Q1; If both yr options are consciously and deliberately done to maintain or give yr team an advantage then NO. They're both cheating.

Q2 See above answer. Its still cheating when its consciously/deliberatley done.

Q3 NO; there's only cheating and fair honest play. Bit like saying is there degrees of theft/stealing/robbing. NO; how much/little of something is taken dishonestly/illegally still constitutes tiefing.
A bit off topic but if your over the alcohol limit by a tiny amount or big amount, your still over the limit and judge will still hand down a sentence.

Okay - I am right in saying then that your definition of cheating is therefore:

"FOOTBALL CHEAT: any player or member of a team who deliberately breaks the laws of the game or attempts to deceive the referee or officials into giving his team an advantage over his opponent."