Peter, Paul and Mo.

[Assasin]

My final Thread on Suarez. Let me say that I respect Paul and Peter's position especially the fact that they find supporting documents etc. Although I don't share the same opinion and I will tell you why. As for Mosiah I also respect you standing up for what you believe.

Only one question I have for Peter and Paul, would you stand up the same way if suarez was the victim and Evra was the offender?

As for me I think Liverpool is the one that let me down. The first thing they should have said is "We don't support any form of Racism". I am not saying they should back their player but to me the message wasn't very clear and that is my biggest disappointment about the whole thing.

To me racism trump football and if a the greatest player on my team them have to feel the heat.

[Mosiah]

Respect, Sass!

My good friend Peter has rationalised di ting.

[Gamma]

is that the same as "tun up di ting"?

[Peter R]

Sass,

Last night I wrote a long reply and when I clicked submit it didn't, and I lost my "little thesis"... I didn't have the energy to re-write... I'll try to recreate what I wrote, cause it was damn good

First could you clarify which opinion you don't share? and I don't see where you explain why...

Your question regarding defending Evra bowled me over... I had thought it had been made abundantly clear by both Paul and me, he more so has stated it much more eloquently, that even "Sir Exlax" would be defended if the tables were turned. I posted something a couple days ago (I'm not good at finding old posts) stating that some posters DO NOT seem to understand that the issue involved is (as you correctly say) bigger than the individuals … Suarez and evra just happen to be the individuals involved now.. it is more about principle... if I can restate what Paul has said; if Fuller were to say in a game to Park after playing less than a year in ENGLAND, " eyy chiney bwoy , watch yuhself", would that be considered a racist statement? would you consider it so?
The short answer to your question is a resounding YES: Evra would DEFINITELY be defended (even though he is a bug)... unfortunately, some posters and commentators bandy the "racist" label around quite loosely and would be quick to label a person as such, regardless of whether he were in fact not racist. The point is that without DEFINITE evidence that a person is racist, we should tread carefully before casually using the term. In this case, Suarez was the only person who admitted anything concrete; he admitted using the word "negro"... what did Evra say? up to now not even he knows what was said to him as he gave several versions... yet the FA used that as "evidence" to punish Suarez for something that was NEVER proven... it was essentially one man's word against another and they decided ARBITRARILY IMO that Suarez was THE offender. Evra to my knowledge was not even given a slap on the wrist for speaking to the man about his sister's privates... but that really is nowhere as serious an offence as being racist in your behavior.

With respect to Liverpool’s stance on racism I cannot say whether they have a written policy nor whether they have transmitted this to the public if they do. I did find this which I paste here (from the Mirror) :

One of the many disappointing things about recent events is that it has led some people to the perception that Liverpool Football Club's stance on racism and discrimination is not as firm as it is," he said.
"That is sad for the many fantastic people who work for this club and for our community team."
He told BBC Sport: "The players showed support for Luis which was fantastic but then some people interpreted that wrongly as the players saying they're not interested in the fight against racism. That is totally and utterly rubbish."
On the Adeyemi issue he added in the club's programme: "It is important to us all here that nobody is left in any doubt as to where Liverpool Football Club stand on this.
"Such behaviour will not be tolerated."
http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news...cle854124.html

While the statement made by Ayre may not be considered strong by many, or considered to be just comments for public consumption, to continue to posit that LFC is a “racist” club or one that fosters racism is just as bad as accusing a man of racism without concrete evidence of such. I cannot say whether LFC has made concrete statements against racism other than what I just found, I don’t follow the club that closely to be honest, but I agree that a firm stand should and MUSt be taken by all clubs against racism.

You end your comments by saying that “racism trumps football and if a de greatest player on my team dem have to feel de heat”… which leads me to infer that you believe that Suarez is indeed racist. The statement without context I wholeheartedly agree with. So we have gone full circle; until it is proven without doubt that he is racist, fresh evidence or subsequent and proven racist behavior, I will continue to uphold his right to NOT be labeled racist. When he is prove to be clearly so, or anyone for that matter, black, white, yellow, brown, red etc. I will NOT hesitate to condemn him regardless of who he is.

[Gamma]

or who he plays for .....

[Peter R]

...or who he plays for...

[Paul Marin]

My final Thread on Suarez. Let me say that I respect Paul and Peter's position especially the fact that they find supporting documents etc. Although I don't share the same opinion and I will tell you why. As for Mosiah I also respect you standing up for what you believe.

Only one question I have for Peter and Paul, would you stand up the same way if suarez was the victim and Evra was the offender?

As for me I think Liverpool is the one that let me down. The first thing they should have said is "We don't support any form of Racism". I am not saying they should back their player but to me the message wasn't very clear and that is my biggest disappointment about the whole thing.

To me racism trump football and if a the greatest player on my team them have to feel the heat.

Sass, I am confused because from what you have written, it seems that we do share the same opinion in that "racism trump football and if a the greatest player on my team them have to feel the heat". Of this I am fully supportive and in total agreement. I'd be the first to "burn Anfield to the ground" if in this modern age it were found to be a racist club.

At the same time, I do not take accusing people of racism lightly. It is as Mandela said - "barbaric" and "just as repulsive if perpetrated by a black man as it is a white man".

So let's not burn an accused man at the stake without a fair application of due process. They used to lynch black people in the American south on the "word" of their white accusers, do you think that system was fair? If not, why then is the FA's process in the Suarez case fair? Help me understand why Evra's word ALONE is enough to hang the man?

And as Peter said, I have stated on here many times that even if this were Slur Fartlick being accused, I would have the very same position. Color, race, ethnicity, team jersey are out the window when it comes to matters of such gravity.

[Assasin]

Paul and Peter mi know sometimes we joke and jest and get lost in long threads but I just want to get it on the record that it not just because Evra is a Liverpool man that you are supporting him.

Let me state again, I don't know if Suarez is a Racist but what he admit to saying is a racist statement in my opinion. For me I visit England a few times and I have a lot of family there and I still see many blacks don't go to a EPL game for the fear of encountering some drunken white thugs alone. I see how the fight for black players to make England's side and I don't condone that kind of statement from a black player, white player, or foriegner. Again we all do make bad statements at time but apologise should be in order.

The problem is what Squarez said offended not just Evra but many other people. Liverpool I wouldn't judge them as a racist club but they need to put policies in place to deal with the occurance of such issues. It is not good for business. Support the player yes and give him all he needs to deal with the issue but also realise others are offended too.

Again I wanted it on the record as I said I respect your position but I just WANTED TO SATIFY MYSELF THAT YOU DIDN'T JUST TAKE THAT POSITION BECAUSE IT WAS A LIVERPOOL PLAYER. It is best to ask than to form an unfair opinion so unnu respect CONCRETE.

[Peter R]

No problem Mr Assassin, your opinions are always considered ones... can you answer this question which I posed but you obviously overlooked... If Fuller were to say to Park " eyy chiney bwoy, watch yuself" after they had an altercation, would that be a racist statement? And I ask you that as a yard man to yard man...

[Assasin]

I did answer it before. I would still consider it racist. Even though the environment is different than the one he is in. I said I had a South Korean teammate in college and we were friend and I ran what I though was a Jamaican joke and he was offended. I quickly apologised and we were cool again and I learned and moved on.

I have also been called you know what playing against a school in Long Island and I do know how it felt. Then I was a a rugged defender who could put up a guy without even get a card on the ball and guess what I did. Now I wouldn't have responded that way but then I felt justified. I wouldn't excuse anyone whether it was his first day in the country or they were born in upper part of England. This where education comes in not only for Liverpool but by the FA and the other clubs.

[Paul Marin]

I did answer it before. I would still consider it racist. Even though the environment is different than the one he is in. I said I had a South Korean teammate in college and we were friend and I ran what I though was a Jamaican joke and he was offended. I quickly apologised and we were cool again and I learned and moved on.

I have also been called you know what playing against a school in Long Island and I do know how it felt. Then I was a a rugged defender who could put up a guy without even get a card on the ball and guess what I did. Now I wouldn't have responded that way but then I felt justified. I wouldn't excuse anyone whether it was his first day in the country or they were born in upper part of England. This where education comes in not only for Liverpool but by the FA and the other clubs.

If your joke had a racial component, were you a racist for making such a joke to your Korean friend? And sorry - I forgot to say, and if Fuller was being racist in that question peter asked, then are all of us who used the word chiney racist? Have you ever used that word?

[Assasin]

As I said I don't consider Suarez a racist but his statement was a racist statement. There is a big difference as we all have said something offensive publicly or private that can be considered racist at one time or another. I will say this again I will not judge if Suarez is a racist or not as I have no proof he is, mistake do happen but we have to be big enough to accept it and move on.

I would have to see more action that than that from Fuller to determine if he is racist or not but I can't judge him on one incident, but that doesn't mean it is not an offensive racist statement. I also give Suarez that benefit of doubt, but I don't condone what he accepted that he said then.

[Paul Marin]

As I said I don't consider Suarez a racist but his statement was a racist statement. There is a big difference as we all have said something offensive publicly or private that can be considered racist at one time or another. I will say this again I will not judge if Suarez is a racist or not as I have no proof he is, mistake do happen but we have to be big enough to accept it and move on.

I would have to see more action that than that from Fuller to determine if he is racist or not but I can't judge him on one incident, but that doesn't mean it is not an offensive racist statement. I also give Suarez that benefit of doubt, but I don't condone what he accepted that he said then.

"but his statement was a racist statement..." Sass, this is where we have a difference of opinion which is fine. The reason I don't think Fuller calling Park a "chiney" is racist is because I understand it in our cultural context. I also believe that cultural context and intent is the basis for a racist statement in that the intent behind the statement and context play a big part in making that determination. Generally speaking, my position is that if the person using the words intended to be offensive, then yes - it is a racist statement. If not, then it isn't.

At least we agree that there is a "big difference [between being a racist and making a racist statement] as we all have said something offensive publicly or private that can be considered racist at one time or another". This wisdom is lost on most people who do not understand the issue at hand nor have they done their homework. One of the most preposterous things I've heard people on this board say is that they "believe Suarez is a racist" yet the only thing they have to go on is Evra's accusations and unlike you, consider that "proof" enough. Pure madness.

[Mosiah]

Sorry, Peter! I meant Paul!

[Peter R]

Ok... the thing is that if your team-mate had then reported you for racial abuse you might have felt hard done by... and if you were dropped for eight matches for it and your other team-mates who knew you supported you in that you had no racist intent, wouldn't that be ok?

One thing we ALL AGREE on is that racism is ugly and should not be tolerated. I have no problem with you taking a firm line on not excusing a man whether first day in the country or not... but in reality the cultural background of the individual should be considered if one is going to attribute the tag of racist to the person.

On another note, I did live in Canada for 22 years and the political correctness of the language can be stifling, so much so that it was indeed a shock to my ears on returning to the west indies (TT) to hear people freely referring to persons by their race , ethnicity, colour (call it what you want) without any "racial" overtones... refreshing in a way... BUT, even here education is needed when it comes to showing sensitivity towards people other than those of your "ethnicity or race.