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[Paul Marin]

Paul... Jangle may not be the Jangle you think he is/was... he might actually be another poster posing as him... I don't understand (nor really care to anymore) the change in his tone, timbre and dare I say manners. I really believe that to be true, either that or bi-polarity is at work.

I know he will read this, but frankly just as a poster* was allegedly turned off (the forum) because of your (and my) position regarding Suarez, I am similarly turned off by the attitude that some posters demonstrate to others... as you say, it is really sad. If or when the forum becomes a bunch of posters who can only agree and it becomes a meeting of "yes-men" i will probably remove myself to find more fertile ground with independent thinkers..Having said that, I hope that the posters who can reason, disagree, differ, agree without getting down into the gutter maintain a presence on the forum.. and thankfully that is in the vast majority.

* According to Jangle, that poster is Sickko. According to Jangle you and I "ran him" or something to that effect because we defended racism... or something to that effect. I imagine he must have heard that directly from Sickko (if it is indeed the fact). I actually found that if that is true, that he left because of our position, that the poster never knew the value of reflection or introspection as some of his comments on this post... well frankly i don't know how they stood up to the "censorship" by the moderators. And that is true whether or not he is absent because of the position of other posters on an issue.

Pedro, if anyone on here thinks I am defending racism (or you are doing so for that matter) they are clearly of diminished intellectual capacity. I don't know what bouts of racism others on this board have suffered, but as you know - I have suffered my fair share.

My fight is for fairness, regardless of color, race or team jersey. As Natty Bob said - "until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all, without regard to race - me say war".

Anyone who takes the time to apply critical thinking only has to ask themselves, "What if a black man were similarly accused and tried using the same tactics used to condemn Suarez?" Would we be happy? As in the example I used, what if Fuller called Park a "chiney man" and was accused of racial abuse? How many on here would protest? This case is almost an exact parallel.

And how many people have called the man racist - like Jangle - even though the FA and Evra both went to great lengths NOT to call him racist. Have they asked why the FA and Evra did so? After all, if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, isn't it a duck?

The reason, for those who want to open their eyes is that by calling him a racist, Suarez would have had legal recourse under libel laws in the UK. They were smart enough to side-step this potential direction as they know they would have LOST in court as there was no more evidence than hearsay used to convict the man, i.e. the police did not find enough evidence to convict him in the first place, and no new evidence (which they would have been compelled to share with the police) was uncovered by their investigation.

Anyway - if Siccko run gone because of me, I am sorry - but I stand my ground and hope that I have a right to continue putting forth reasoned and sound discussion. Incidentally, did Siccko also stop reading the Gleaner after Orville Higgins wrote this piece on the affair? http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2...cleisure4.html

And TO BE PERFECTLY CLEAR - I don't agree withe everything Higgins said in this article, the least of which is that Suarez did not call Evra "a negro".

Again, I am trying to impress upon people the importance of fairness. Until we have systems that are fair for everyone, don't be surprised when those flawed tactics and systems are used against us. I will say that NO ONE on this board should be happy about the way in which the Suarez matter was handled by the FA.

[OJ]

You know discussing liverpool is like discussing MK Dons or Burnley FC... they are headed in the wrong direction towards relegation.... bug side......

[Paul Marin]

Calling a man of Chinese descent a chiny man is not considered an offensive name by Chinese or any other group. If Suarez had called Evra a blackman in his native tongue that may have been acceptable. Calling a blackman a negro (nice way of putting the word) in any language is been downright disrespectful and racist. The word has a negative connotation (racist) associated with it unlike the word chinyman.

Mitty, you just made my point. But first, where did you hear that he called him anything but "negro" in Spanish? He certainly didn't call him ************. When translated in Uruguayan context "negro" is just as inoffensive as how we use the world "chineyman" in Jamaica. The experts at the FA tribunal confirmed this, as have many others. So if Fuller called Park a "chineyman" and went before the same kangaroo court as did Suarez, he would have been guilty of "racial abuse". It is a simple and exact parallel.

[Paul Marin]

You know discussing liverpool is like discussing MK Dons or Burnley FC... they are headed in the wrong direction towards relegation.... bug side......

I won't argue with you about the "headed in the wrong direction towards relegation" bit, that is fact. But "bug side"...well...that is opinion that could cause big man fi slap domino, drink a shot of white rum an' draw him glock!!!

[Jangle]

Peter don't get so touchy. One of the risk that I run here is that sometimes when I try to be funny/witty it doesn't come across as intended because it is sometimes hard to convey the true meaning of my "amazing" wit with typed words. I try to be very selective with those who I "run jokes" with. The Sickko post was meant as such. Mek me know right now if yuh "thin-skin", with Paul me no worry bout him because fi him skin tougher than ledda. I dish it out so I can tek it back. You have been on the forum long enough to get a sense of the type of personalities that post here. Here, have one on me. It's time now we come off this racist thing and move on.

[OJ]

well i know how it feels, my side was moving sideways until I remember what Courtney use to say about form is temporary and class is permanent... So hold the faith... Truly of all the big teams your midfield is ordinary... Gerrard is a great player for himself but around the D he only see the net... don't unlock defenses or help anyone. Same problem in an England uniform..

[Paul Marin]

well i know how it feels, my side was moving sideways until I remember what Courtney use to say about form is temporary and class is permanent... So hold the faith... Truly of all the big teams your midfield is ordinary... Gerrard is a great player for himself but around the D he only see the net... don't unlock defenses or help anyone. Same problem in an England uniform..

Well, the science behind our midfield is more compelling than most people realize. We have hit the post over 21 times this season, more than any other team; our midfield is one of the top "chance creators" in the Prem...which incidentally was the logic behind signing Henderson, Downing and Adam - three of the top chance creators from the prior season. What has not worked is our conversion rate on chances...both a forward line and a midfield dilemma...but nothing that a top striker next season won't fix. So watch out for the "bug side" then. And by the way - you wrenk fi a call we "bug side" when fi u team don' win one piece of silverware in 6 or 7 years - so..."will the real bug side please stand up!!!"

[Jangle]

I was telling another Xuberant Loserfool today that one of the problems with his bug side was also the coach. KG won his medals in the olden days when the league was packed with mostly English managers. Tactics was an after-thought. For Loserfool to compete with the big sides, i.e. The Empire, Man$heety, Gummers, Tottenham, Newcastle, Swansea and Everton, they need to get rid of the coach and nuff a the deadweights - Big Bwoy Carroll, Long-seed Carragher, and a few others. Gerrard and Kuyt is needed in the changing room to help bring on the new players and to add balance. Gerrard's role and influence in team needs to be reduced. Shortman Bellamy should only be used as a sub and not given more than 20 mins. Sewerez, the racist, should play as a third striker behind two proven finishers.

[Jangle]

My apologies Paul. Typed words can be interpreted harshly sometimes. I enjoy our banter too much to "run" you off the forum. Afterall, PeterR's skin too "thin" ( ) and me fraid a Mosiah because him head twice the size of mine.

[Paul Marin]

I was telling another Xuberant Loserfool today that one of the problems with his bug side was also the coach. KG won his medals in the olden days when the league was packed with mostly English managers. Tactics was an after-thought. For Loserfool to compete with the big sides, i.e. The Empire, Man$heety, Gummers, Tottenham, Newcastle, Swansea and Everton, they need to get rid of the coach and nuff a the deadweights - Big Bwoy Carroll, Long-seed Carragher, and a few others. Gerrard and Kuyt is needed in the changing room to help bring on the new players and to add balance. Gerrard's role and influence in team needs to be reduced. Shortman Bellamy should only be used as a sub and not given more than 20 mins. Sewerez, the racist, should play as a third striker behind two proven finishers.

This post goes to show -- on so many levels -- how truly little you understand about football...much less racism. And don't think I gwine mek you call Suarez demdeh name deh widout reminding you that the FA same one dem called your eejit bwoy Evra "unreliable"...not to mention the French FA calling him a "liar". Everton..."big side"? That alone puts you in the category of eejit right there with Evra!!!!

Anyway, Carragher is not a starter, but a dressing room man himself; KK's tactics knocked you and your tiefin' team out of the FA Cup, City out of the League Cup and brought the club its first piece of silverware in 6 years (okay, it's just the League Cup, but more than we can say for Arsenal). The team's problem is in no way the manager*; in fact, it has suffered from only two very significant mistakes - 1) signing Carroll for $50M and 2) Kuyt's missed penalty against Arsenal. It has also suffered it's fair share of bad luck - 21+ posts is a record (I believe) for any prem team at this stage of the season. KK is not the problem.

==

*KK has shown that the team is capable of playing very attacking football...the game against Arsenal showed that, as did it show in the FA Cup. We need to: 1) recall Aquilani (or get another attacking midfielder and 2) buy a proven goal-scoring striker.

[Mitty]

What point?? Ur analogy is not parallel.
The translation is vague at best, if Suarez wanted to be respectful in the heat of battle he should have called Evra by his name. Suarez has proved that in the heat of battle, when he cannot win by conventional methods or by playing fairly he would resort to any dirty tactics. I would not believe a word he said, void of clarity of what was said, I would take Evra's interpretation of the word any day.

[Paul Marin]

What point?? Ur analogy is not parallel.
The translation is vague at best, if Suarez wanted to be respectful in the heat of battle he should have called Evra by his name. Suarez has proved that in the heat of battle, when he cannot win by conventional methods or by playing fairly he would resort to any dirty tactics. I would not believe a word he said, void of clarity of what was said, I would take Evra's interpretation of the word any day.

I will remind you of what you said:

Calling a man of Chinese descent a chiny man is not considered an offensive name by Chinese or any other group. If Suarez had called Evra a blackman in his native tongue that may have been acceptable. Calling a blackman a negro (nice way of putting the word) in any language is been downright disrespectful and racist. The word has a negative connotation (racist) associated with it unlike the word chinyman.

Mitty - Suarez DID call Evra "a blackman in his native tongue". He did not call him a "a negro (nice way of putting the word)"...this is FACT. To be clear -- and this is undisputed -- the exchange took place in Spanish; the Spanish word for "black" is "negro" but in the context that Suarez used it, the experts found it non-offensive in his native Uruguay, just like "chineyman" is non offensive in our culture. This is as exact a parallel as you could have it.

[Paul Marin]

What point?? Ur analogy is not parallel.
The translation is vague at best, if Suarez wanted to be respectful in the heat of battle he should have called Evra by his name. Suarez has proved that in the heat of battle, when he cannot win by conventional methods or by playing fairly he would resort to any dirty tactics. I would not believe a word he said, void of clarity of what was said, I would take Evra's interpretation of the word any day.

And by the way - "if Suarez wanted to be respectful in the heat of battle he should have called Evra by his name" - I remind you that Evra started the exchange by telling Suarez about his sister's vagina. Undisputed fact.

[Peter R]

Ok sir. But I took your Sickko post at face value. You said we run man from the forum and I asked "how so" ,, I am not good at linking past posts otherwise i would. Bottom line is I took it at face value. If it was meant as a joke i didn't get it... maybe that was my interpretation, but I did find your comments a little "unlike" the jangle I have seen posting...
Anyway, let's just put that behind us as you say... it is much easier being friendly that confrontational... we cyan still call each odder team " Manure" and "Loserfool" (did I type that?) and ebryting criss!

Sorry bout de Sickko ting!

[Peter R]

Paul,
The problem is that many (and I'm not talking just the forum) are blinded by hatred or intense dislike of Suarez (Liverpool too) that they cannot see that the issue is NOT about Suarez and Evra, but the bigger picture of Racism (capital R). Until the veil is lifted from their eyes then your points are falling on deaf ears.

the fact that Mitty would accept Evra's words any day over Suarez is telling as it is troubling... I would say that tantamount to prejudice and I am referring to meaning numbers 1 and especially 2... but that is his prerogative I suppose unless he and Evra are close buddies.
prej·u·dice

   /ˈprɛdʒədɪs/ Show Spelled [prej-uh-dis] Show IPA noun, verb, -diced, -dic·ing.
noun 1. an unfavorable opinion or feeling formed beforehand or without knowledge, thought, or reason.

2. any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable.

3. unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

4. such attitudes considered collectively: The war against prejudice is never-ending.

5. damage or injury; detriment: a law that operated to the prejudice of the majority.


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