Suarez 1...2...3

[Gamma]

nice try with the jedi mind trick. not all handballs that are given are are for intentional handballs and only intentional handballs would be considered cheating. again i bring up pepe goodison vs suarez ... why did suarez get a red card and pepe did not?

[Paul Marin]

HUH?!!!!!

yuh bold! intentional is NOT redundant it is exactly the point. yuh marinising again ... good try even if a little transparent. INTENTIONAL is not the same as incidental or even accidental! how can you even suggest otherwise.

a person who intentionally run yuh dung wid dem cyar is no more cilpable than if it was accidental? paul, please leave in tact whatever remains of the high esteem in which i held you ... the bobbing and weaving and omitting and inserting doesn't really give a good impression. i never said or intimated or even suggested that a mere handball qualifies one as a cheat in fact that is the fallacy... i have always said an intentional handball is what qualifies one as a cheat and gave examples. you want to say ALL handball is intentional once the ref blows ... that is not so. ask any of the FIFA refs.

"finally you get it" priceless my yute. that jedi mind trick is apt to be more successful on storm troopers ... too funny. if i neva read it for myself i would not believe you had the audacity to try it!

Laawd jesu fada...Gamma - I am telling you that INTENTIONAL HANDBALL is the only thing being discussed. PERIOD!!! To me, to use the term "intentional" handball is redundant because the ref cannot blow (at least by the letter of the law) unless the player's INTENT is to handle the ball. Secondly, even you (though I am close to doubting this) couldn't argue that unintentional would be classified as cheating, so again, no need to discuss.

OKAY. That' done.

NOW - because you refuse to put forth any argument stating why Suarez is a cheat, let me see if I piece together the dribs and drabs of your ramblings. Your position is:

"Luis Suarez is a cheat because he intentionally handled the ball".

Is that correct? It is a YES or NO question. If "NO" then please CLEARLY state why the man is a cheat as if you were explaining it to a six year old. No "isms". I am too daft to decipher lawyer-speak.

[Gamma]

i have spoken lawyer speak yet and my 4 year can understand me ...

i think the problem is that you keep adding stuff and subtracting stuff from unwritten rules to common practice to ..... what next. so we are NOW talking about intentional handball, so i take it therefore that the referee can give a free kick or even a penalty for a handball that is not intentional and that consequently the ref may give a yellow card or a red card (why the distinction)?

YES intentional handball is cheating .... i don't know how many different ways I can put that to you, this is what the thread was about to begin with.

BTW ... from the rules of the game:

Sending-Off Offences


A player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

1. is guilty of serious foul play
2. is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or any other person
4. denies an opponent a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive, insulting or abusive language
7. receives a second caution in the same match

[Paul Marin]

YES intentional handball is cheating .... i don't know how many different ways I can put that to you, this is what the thread was about to begin with.

BTW ... from the rules of the game:

Sending-Off Offences


A player is sent off and shown the red card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

1. is guilty of serious foul play
2. is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or any other person
4. denies an opponent a goal or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player's goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive, insulting or abusive language
7. receives a second caution in the same match

Who cares about red or yellow etc., and sending off now - and you say I am adding and subtracting? All I have asked from the beginning is the basis of your claim that he is a cheat. So I remind you, I asked:

Your position is:

"Luis Suarez is a cheat because he intentionally handled the ball".

Is that correct? It is a YES or NO question. If "NO" then please CLEARLY state why the man is a cheat as if you were explaining it to a six year old. No "isms". I am too daft to decipher lawyer-speak.

I am going to take: your response as a YES!

==============================

Okay, then all I am saying is that by that accord, every handball awarded by a ref therefore makes the player a cheat. That's all. Nothing more, nothing less as the ref cannot award a handball if it is not in his opinion intentional. So for example, based on your assessment, Arsenal's current UCL place would therefore be fraudulent and Vermaelen a cheat. Do you agree? If the answer is YES, then argument done.

After Di Natale's header put the Italians ahead at halftime, Arsenal no longer had the upper hand in the tie. They had their work cut out for them, and the breakthrough came in the 55th minute, when some superb dribbling and a well-placed pass by Gervinho was calmly finished by Robin van Persie.

A few minutes later, the referee called a controversial penalty against Arsenal after Thomas Vermaelen apparently committed a handball in the box. A reply later indicated that ref had made a good call.

However, Wojciech Szczesny made a brilliant save to turn Di Natale's penalty over the bar. This was the real turning point in the match, as a goal for Udinese would have meant a completely different match.

[Bruce]

Before anyone calls Luis Suarez a cheat, how about the 2006 Italian World Cup champions who dove and feigned injury all the way through the final match?

That's what I call cheating.

[Paul Marin]

Before anyone calls Luis Suarez a cheat, how about the 2006 Italian World Cup champions who dove and feigned injury all the way through the final match?

That's what I call cheating.

Yes Bruce...I agree...deceitful behavior is cheating.

[Gamma]

why some handballs get red and some only get yellow and some nothing at all? because INTENT or DELIBERATENESS is a factor... EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating. I cannot make it any more simple than that!

was vermaelen's hand ball intentional or deliberate? did he get a red card? did he intend to gain an an advantage by deliberately handling the ball? if so YES he is a cheat! if it was incidental and he gained an advantage then NO he is not a cheat!

the issue of the red card is the proof that DELIBERATE handball is treated differently from intentional or accidental handball (and in the penalty are at that) ... WHY?

[Paul Marin]

why some handballs get red and some only get yellow and some nothing at all? because INTENT or DELIBERATENESS is a factor... EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating. I cannot make it any more simple than that!

Gamma, re-read that. You just hung yourself. You clearly don't understand the laws of the game which are probably the basis of your misguided arguments.

1. You said: "EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating. I cannot make it any more simple than that!"

2. You asked: "Why some handballs get red and some only get yellow and some nothing at all?" Your Answer: because INTENT or DELIBERATENESS is a factor.

Actually, you are wrong. Cards are not awarded for "intent" with a handball infraction. The correct answer for cards (or nothing) being given for handballs are as follows:

• Red cards - given when a clear goal scoring opportunity is denied per your earlier post;
• Yellow cards - from Law 12: A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

1. • unsporting behaviour
   • dissent by word or action
   • persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game
   • delaying the restart of play
   • failure to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in
   • entering or re-entering the fi eld of play without the referee’s permission
   • deliberately leaving the fi eld of play without the referee’s permission

Note that nowhere in the laws are YELLOW cards directly tied to any handball infraction, so a Yellow (if dispensed for a handball infraction) has to be based on the referee in his discretion applying one of the above as his basis. It therefore goes to follow that the reason NO CARD is given is because clearly the ref didn't think it rose to the level of falling into one of those 7 above infractions. To make this easier for you, "Yellows" for a handball are usually given for "unsporting behaviour".

Law 12 also clearly states:

A direct free kick is also (look up the law for other infractions like fouls) awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following three offences:

• holds an opponent
• spits at an opponent
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area)

Note the word DELIBERATELY meaning that a direct free kick CANNOT BE CALLED for an UNINTENTIONAL handball!!!! There is no such thing as a "handball infraction" if it is NOT intentional, the player may as well have struck the ball with his tongue. So it is IMPLIED that "handball" IS intentional.

THEREFORE, IF EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating, then EVERY PLAYER who has ever been accused of a handball, whether he got a red, yellow or nothing, or whether he denied a goal scoring opportunity or not, is also a cheat as INTENT is always implied when the award for handball is given by the referee.

So it logically follows that your characterization of Suarez as a "cheat" because he "INTENTIONALLY HANDLED THE BALL" is disingenuous, and without basis because as I said, then EVERY PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME FROM AGE 3 to 300 is a cheat if they were ever called for a handball offense and if everyone is a cheat, no one is a cheat. Ergo - why single out Suarez? Sorry counselor, but your own argument is proof positive that you are wrong.

[Gamma]

good try paul .. you are nothing if not "a trying man"

2 questions for you....what amounts to a "deliberate handball" and why was suarez red card for his handball could it be that it was by intentional handling the ball he denied an obvious goal scoring attempt?

finally suarez is not singled out, i also mentioned maradona as 2 instances of cheating using an intentional handball. suarez is an example! furthermore, if the handball was accidental or incidental we would not be having this conversation

[Paul Marin]

good try paul .. you are nothing if not "a trying man"

2 questions for you....what amounts to a "deliberate handball" and why was suarez red card for his handball could it be that it was by intentional handling the ball he denied an obvious goal scoring attempt?

finally suarez is not singled out, i also mentioned maradona as 2 instances of cheating using an intentional handball. suarez is an example! furthermore, if the handball was accidental or incidental we would not be having this conversation

Once again, you are attempting to obfuscate. The basis of your claim for the past few posts has been your clear statement: "EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating. You even went on to say "I cannot make it any more simple than that!" Those are your words, not mine.

Based on your above questions in this most recent post, am I to surmise you are now attempting to change your original statement ("EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating") to "EVERY INTENTIONAL handball that results in a red card is cheating"?

I have already proven the fallacy of the former argument; if you wish, I can prove the fallacy of this new one (be it your position) as well. If you wish to come with a new argument that's fine too, I am not Suarez's advocate, I am only a vigilante in a fight against false claims...even if the claim involves a criminal. So bring a good claim, and I will stand corrected. So far...you have not.

Peace.

[Gamma]

no attempt to obfuscate anything .... sorry. i was asking you a question that led on from you previous answer. why was suarez given a red card for his handball ... that is what i want to know ....

vigilante huh? tights and all huh?

anyway back to my question, i am not asking you to surmise anything just to answer a question and if you would stop looking for russians behind trees just for a second you may oblige me with an answer.

[Paul Marin]

no attempt to obfuscate anything .... vigilante huh? tights and all huh?

Di Bible have word fi people lacka u!!!

no attempt to obfuscate anything .... sorry. i was asking you a question that led on from you previous answer. why was suarez given a red card for his handball ... that is what i want to know ...

You tell me. Here is the relevant section of Law 12:

A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any of the following seven offences:

• serious foul play
• violent conduct
• spitting at an opponent or any other person
• denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply to a goalkeeper within
• his own penalty area)
• denying an obvious goalscoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
• using offensive, insulting or abusive language and/or gestures
• receiving a second caution in the same match

[Gamma]

because he denied a goalscoring opportunity by DELIBERATELY handling the ball as made distinct from denying a goalscoring opportunity by any other means? yes? ok so are you saying that he is a cheat because he denied a goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball, a suh? if so then i agree with you. if not then i don't agree with you.

i spoke to a FIFA ref who said that the decision whether or not to issue a yellow card for a handball infraction, is within the discretion of the referee based on his opinion as to the intentional/or deliberate use of the hands .... e.g.someone geting an "air pie" who grabs the ball (this one is a cheat and will in all likelihood get a yellow card) as opposed to someone whose hand is away from his body when contact is made and his hand is deemed to be "moving toward" the ball for which a free kick is awarded with no further penalty to person who handled the ball.

[Paul Marin]

because he denied a goalscoring opportunity by DELIBERATELY handling the ball as made distinct from denying a goalscoring opportunity by any other means? yes? ok so are you saying that he is a cheat because he denied a goalscoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball, a suh? if so then i agree with you. if not then i don't agree with you.

What are you trying to say here? Please clarify. As for the rest of your post, this part is fine...

i spoke to a FIFA ref who said that the decision whether or not to issue a yellow card for a handball infraction, is within the discretion of the referee...

However, that discretion has to be within the boundaries afforded by the laws of the game. Therefore, the continuance is nonsense.

...based on his opinion as to the intentional/or deliberate use of the hands...

I remind you that for a handball to be an infraction it MUST BE INTENTIONAL. Where in the law does it say a yellow can be issued "for a handball...based on [the ref's] opinion as to the intentional/or deliberate use of the hands"?

This is pure fabrication on his part. If this is where you get your info, no wonder you are confused. Remind him of the relevant aspects of the law:

1. Handball infractions MUST be intentional

2. Cautions are dispensed based on the following segment of Law 12: A player is cautioned and shown the yellow card if he commits any of the following seven offences:

• unsporting behaviour
• dissent by word or action
• persistent infringement of the Laws of the Game
• delaying the restart of play
• failure to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a corner kick, free kick or throw-in
• entering or re-entering the field of play without the referee’s permission
• deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission

No mention of handball or handball intentions anywhere!!

I reiterate; your claim that Suarez is a cheat because he "intentionally" handled the ball is baseless. I remind you of your own statement:

"EVERY INTENTIONAL handball is cheating.".

Are you now changing this to say EVERY INTENTIONAL handball that denies a goal scoring opportunity or a goal is cheating?

I'm okay with you changing your argument, but your old argument is found again and again to be baseless. Wheel an' tu'n again.

[Gamma]

intentional handball is unsporting behaviour if the ref determines that based on what he sees of the infraction.... where does it say you cannot kick down a player without playing the ball? you wheel and come again! have you ever seen a ref give a yellow card for a handball? have you ever seen a ref NOT give a card for a handball? what is the difference? perhaps in one instance it was unsporting and in the other it was not? what you seem to be saying is that the referee has no discretion ..... that is one of the first thing that a match commissioner discusses at the technical meeting before an international. i don't want to add anything additional but remind to to tell you about my discourse with FIFA dsiciplinary committee involving a (last man) red card

i am saying that that is why suarez got the red card for the goalie save ... i.e. his intentional handball is and remains the cheating.

so your standard of a cheat is "intentional handball that denies an obvious goalscoring opportunity"