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Lazie this one is dedicated to u.. END SHOCKING TRANSFER

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  • Lazie this one is dedicated to u.. END SHOCKING TRANSFER

    TOMKINS: END SHOCKING TRANSFER MYTH
    Paul Tomkins 04 March 2009 Okay, it must end NOW! I've reached breaking point. The shocking transfer myth must be put to rest, once and for all.

    I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

    Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

    No. Where. Near.

    Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

    Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

    It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

    Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

    So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

    (Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

    It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

    You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

    Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

    If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

    According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

    (I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

    So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

    But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

    You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

    Is that really too tough to grasp?

    From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

    But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

    (Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

    The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

    Chelsea £207m
    Manchester United £206m*
    Spurs £188m
    Manchester City £140m
    Liverpool £127m

    (*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

    So what does this tell us?

    Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

    So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

    But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

    And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

    After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

    Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

    Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

    After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

    Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

    Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

    I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

    Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

    Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

    So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

    Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website.
    THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

    "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


    "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

  • #2
    Him sounding defensive. The point that was made about Rafa spending was to pour cold water on the argument that Rafa was at a disadvantage. The fact is since 2004 Rafa spent £189 m well Tomkins say its £188 m pick yuh poision. Yet him still don't have a quality squad? That just prove that Rafa nuh know what him want. Buy Keane today ... sell him in 4 months time?

    Unuh need fi start fret ... cause if him get him hands pon the purse unuh will certainly be in the runnings fi the Championship season after next.
    "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

    Comment


    • #3
      Lazie, no offence, but I am convinced you didn't get past kindergarten. Once again, you read something that is clearly articulated, closely factual, and spin it in an absurd and completely illogical fashion. It is rather remarkable really, and somewhere in there, there must be something about this talent of yours that sparks of genius...but I don't think so.

      Tomkins clearly stated that the 188M figure is farcical and that net spending is the only way to truly assess spending. But you ignore the facts and go straight to hyperbole. Why? Can't you just say: "Yes, he has a point, but my team is in this position because of x, y, z...your team isn't...too bad for you," or whatever.

      I agree that one can - from the outside - surmise that Rafa has been erratic at times, and there are some blunders that he has made that are irrefutable.

      That said, I am not a fan of Rafa Benitez. He is too cautious for my liking. However, recent developments in the Prem leads me to believe that there are three key drivers to Premiership success:

      1. Significant spending on top players
      2. Managerial talent and
      3. Managerial longevity

      Until recently, you could get away with 2 out of the three, but since Abramovich, you need all three. So as I see it, Liverpool won't get there with the current ownership structure and revenue sources. That's why they have to sell the club to new owners who can afford to build a new stadium. AND they MUST keep Rafa. He is talented enough and has the right CV. He needs the longevity and the money to spend on deepening the squad. Until then, we can kiss any dream of winning the title away.

      Peace.
      "H.L & Brick .....mi deh pan di wagon (Man City)" - X_____ http://www.reggaeboyzsc.com/forum1/showthread.php?p=378365&highlight=City+Liverpool#p ost378365

      X DESCRIBES HIMSELF - Stop masquerading as if you have the clubs interest at heart, you are a fraud, always was and always will be in any and every thing that you present...

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Paul Marin View Post
        Lazie, no offence, but I am convinced you didn't get past kindergarten. Once again, you read something that is clearly articulated, closely factual, and spin it in an absurd and completely illogical fashion. It is rather remarkable really, and somewhere in there, there must be something about this talent of yours that sparks of genius...but I don't think so.

        Tomkins clearly stated that the 188M figure is farcical and that net spending is the only way to truly assess spending. But you ignore the facts and go straight to hyperbole. Why? Can't you just say: "Yes, he has a point, but my team is in this position because of x, y, z...your team isn't...too bad for you," or whatever.

        I agree that one can - from the outside - surmise that Rafa has been erratic at times, and there are some blunders that he has made that are irrefutable.

        That said, I am not a fan of Rafa Benitez. He is too cautious for my liking. However, recent developments in the Prem leads me to believe that there are three key drivers to Premiership success:

        1. Significant spending on top players
        2. Managerial talent and
        3. Managerial longevity

        Until recently, you could get away with 2 out of the three, but since Abramovich, you need all three. So as I see it, Liverpool won't get there with the current ownership structure and revenue sources. That's why they have to sell the club to new owners who can afford to build a new stadium. AND they MUST keep Rafa. He is talented enough and has the right CV. He needs the longevity and the money to spend on deepening the squad. Until then, we can kiss any dream of winning the title away.

        Peace.
        You question me passing kindergarten? "According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m...." Not certain what yuh missing here.

        I did read one of the articles point to the spending of Rafa and the comparison was done since 2004, the year he went to Liverpool. Whats the use comparing his spending to 21 years ago? The point that was made in the previous article is that since 2004 Rafa has spent more than Fergie. Rafa brought 49 players since then and yet the only quality in the team is Torres and Gerrard?

        Its not spin Paul ... its called keeping it real.
        "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

        Comment


        • #5
          Paul yuh feget dem man deh united in dem kindgeraten ignorance.Yuh coulda gi dem the letters from the alphabet to spell liverpool and it would some how come out united.

          Hopeless boss, its just proof to me that with less Rafa is the best.
          THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

          "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


          "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by X View Post
            Paul yuh feget dem man deh united in dem kindgeraten ignorance.Yuh coulda gi dem the letters from the alphabet to spell liverpool and it would some how come out united.

            Hopeless boss, its just proof to me that with less Rafa is the best.
            With less? When him spend more?

            Liverpool Players In Since Summer 2004 this is estimated since there are some undisclosed amounts.
            Josemi Rey (£2,000,000)
            Antonio Nunez (£1,500,000)
            Luis Garcia (£6,000,000)
            Xabi Alonso (£10,700,000)
            Mauricio Pellegrino (Free)
            Fernando Morientes (£6,300,000)
            Scott Carson (£1,000,000)
            Antonio Barragan (£240,000)
            Boudewijn Zenden (Free)
            Jose Reina (£6,000,000)
            Mohamed Sissoko (£5,600,000)
            Peter Crouch (£7,000,000)
            Godwin Antwi (Unknown)
            Miki Roque (Unknown)
            Jack Hobbs (£150,000)
            Besian Idrizaj (£190,000)
            Mark Gonzalez (£1,500,000)
            Paul Anderson (Player Exchange)
            Jan Kromkamp (Player Exchange)
            Daniel Agger (£5,800,000)
            David Martin (£250,000)
            Robbie Fowler (Free)
            Craig Bellamy (£6,000,000)
            Gabriel Paletta (£2,000,000)
            Fábio Aurélio (Free)
            Jermaine Pennant (£6,700,000)
            Dirk Kuyt (£9,000,000)
            Nabil El Zhar (£200,000)
            Jordy Brouwer (Undisclosed)
            Francisco Durán (£66,000)
            Ronald Huth (Undisclosed)
            Álvaro Arbeloa (£2,500,000)
            Lucas Leiva (£5,000,000)
            Mikel San José Domínguez (£270,000)
            Sebastian Leto (£1,800,000)
            Fernando Torres (£20,200,000)
            Andriy Voronin (Free)
            Yossi Benayoun (£5,000,000)
            Ryan Babel (£11,500,000)
            Charles Itandje (Undisclosed)
            Emiliano Insúa (£1,300,000)
            Martin Skrtel (£6,500,000)
            Javier Mascherano (£17,000,000)
            Philipp Degen (Free)
            Andrea Dossena (£7,000,000)
            Diego Cavalieri (£3,500,000)
            David Ngog (£1,500,000)
            Robbie Keane (£19,000,000)
            Albert Riera (£8,000,000)

            Total spend: £189.866m
            "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

            Comment


            • #7
              Now I am sure you didn't pass kindergarten...

              Lazie, for the LAST TIME, it is a NET SPENDING equation, not a GROSS spending equation. As the man said: "When someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you? If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic. According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped [FROM SELLING OTHER PLAYERS]".

              I have a feeling that if we split yu head open wi ago fin' concrete...lawd hav' mercy fada help me wid disya bwoy.
              "H.L & Brick .....mi deh pan di wagon (Man City)" - X_____ http://www.reggaeboyzsc.com/forum1/showthread.php?p=378365&highlight=City+Liverpool#p ost378365

              X DESCRIBES HIMSELF - Stop masquerading as if you have the clubs interest at heart, you are a fraud, always was and always will be in any and every thing that you present...

              Comment


              • #8
                X, there is no question that Rafa has done the most with the least. That is irrefutable. The only manager that can probably come close (and this season will be the telling season) will be Martin O'Neil. He was my first pick for manager over Rafa, but at that time, he would NEVER have been able to attract top talent to the club. In that sense, Rafa was by far a better choice (and continues to be).

                As for Lazie, I think that the bwoy is either a) dunce b) provocative c) secretly in love with Rafa or d) all of the above. Still, this board would be far poorer without him even though him hopeless fi true.
                "H.L & Brick .....mi deh pan di wagon (Man City)" - X_____ http://www.reggaeboyzsc.com/forum1/showthread.php?p=378365&highlight=City+Liverpool#p ost378365

                X DESCRIBES HIMSELF - Stop masquerading as if you have the clubs interest at heart, you are a fraud, always was and always will be in any and every thing that you present...

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Paul Marin View Post
                  Lazie, for the LAST TIME, it is a NET SPENDING equation, not a GROSS spending equation. As the man said: "When someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you? If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic. According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped [FROM SELLING OTHER PLAYERS]".

                  I have a feeling that if we split yu head open wi ago fin' concrete...lawd hav' mercy fada help me wid disya bwoy.
                  Now thats the spin y'all want to use .. bout net. The house analogy is ridiculous. Yuh only need one house fi live inna .... yuh need 20+ players fi a football team.

                  "FACT, (As Rafa would say,) Rafa spent 188 m compared to 170 m by the Empire since 2004.
                  "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Lazie - you are being thick headed over dogma. I have tried and tried to help you (being that you are a youngster) with understanding the virtues of objectivity, yet you continue to be dogmatic for no good reason other than to be dogmatic.

                    If you refute the numbers by presented by Paul Tomkins that's fine, but to dispute the equation based on your spending assertions is patently ridiculous. I truly expect that these words are lost on you, but I am a good samaritan, so I will continue to try in Jesus name. Amen.
                    "H.L & Brick .....mi deh pan di wagon (Man City)" - X_____ http://www.reggaeboyzsc.com/forum1/showthread.php?p=378365&highlight=City+Liverpool#p ost378365

                    X DESCRIBES HIMSELF - Stop masquerading as if you have the clubs interest at heart, you are a fraud, always was and always will be in any and every thing that you present...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Lazie in a class by himself , The Man U class and im proud.So yuh see wha we a deal wid.

                      Wondorous Oblivion...lol
                      THERE IS ONLY ONE ONANDI LOWE!

                      "Good things come out of the garrisons" after his daughter won the 100m Gold For Jamaica.


                      "It therefore is useless and pointless, unless it is for share malice and victimisation to arrest and charge a 92-year-old man for such a simple offence. There is nothing morally wrong with this man smoking a spliff; the only thing wrong is that it is still on the law books," said Chevannes.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Unuh a go kill me .....
                        Hey .. look at the bright side .... at least you're not a Liverpool fan! - Lazie 2/24/10 Paul Marin -19 is one thing, 20 is a whole other matter. It gets even worse if they win the UCL. *groan*. 05/18/2011.MU fans naah cough, but all a unuh a vomit?-Lazie 1/11/2015

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Lazie View Post
                          Him sounding defensive. The point that was made about Rafa spending was to pour cold water on the argument that Rafa was at a disadvantage. The fact is since 2004 Rafa spent £189 m well Tomkins say its £188 m pick yuh poision. Yet him still don't have a quality squad? That just prove that Rafa nuh know what him want. Buy Keane today ... sell him in 4 months time?

                          Unuh need fi start fret ... cause if him get him hands pon the purse unuh will certainly be in the runnings fi the Championship season after next.
                          Lazie: Sometimes yuh talk crazy!
                          Rafa does not have a quality TEAM?

                          Why are you saying that?
                          Please do not tell me; "because the TEAM is lying 3rd in the league"?

                          ...and I'll ask; What has Rafa acheived during the 5 years since he has been in charge?
                          "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Karl View Post
                            Lazie: Sometimes yuh talk crazy!
                            Rafa does not have a quality TEAM?

                            Why are you saying that?
                            Please do not tell me; "because the TEAM is lying 3rd in the league"?

                            ...and I'll ask; What has Rafa acheived over the 5 years since he has been in charge?
                            Without Gerrard and Torres Liverpool would be a midtable team. Tek out those 2, how many Liverpool players can walk into an Arsenal, Chelsea or Aston Villa team? Now flip it?
                            "Jamaica's future reflects its past, having attained only one per cent annual growth over 30 years whilst neighbours have grown at five per cent." (Article)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Lazie View Post
                              Without Gerrard and Torres Liverpool would be a midtable team. Tek out those 2, how many Liverpool players can walk into an Arsenal, Chelsea or Aston Villa team? Now flip it?
                              Take a look at that Liverpool squad again?
                              "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has."

                              Comment

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